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bomtaker
Junior Member

Posts: 1
Registered:
October 2021
Game instruction Pronouns Tue, 05 October 2021 10:48
I just purchased Ticket to Ride Europe and have played multiple Pandemic editions, and noticed that all instruction manuals refer to the player as “He”/“His”.

Is there any reason instructions can’t use They/Them/Theirs pronouns or alternate between He/His, She/Hers, They/Them?

      
fabriono82
Junior Member

Posts: 4
Registered:
January 2022
Re:Game instruction Pronouns Sat, 19 February 2022 22:13
Anyone else find the use of the male pronouns as "default" to be ridiculously annoying? I found it perhaps most surprising in games like Rococo where the content could not be assumed to be intrinsically masculine. The use of only male pronouns on Star Wars the Card Game rules text (along with all other Fantasy Flight games) is equally infuriating. I love Star Wars the Card Game, but I'm always irritated that my cards assume that I'm male.










      
CandleWax
Junior Member

Posts: 3
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February 2009
Re:Game instruction Pronouns Thu, 14 April 2022 05:51
Because, at least for now Days of Wonder is still a family company. I am all for tolerance, but it is grown beyond ridiculous that a small miniscule group(.39%) of people are bullying and demanding that normal society be required to bend the knee to their language desires. Demanding/requesting your pronouns is just as foolish and self-centered as someone demanding their adjectives!

If Days of Wonder starts down this woke path as many game companies have, it will hurt their bottom-line. More so, than other companies due to their product lines in Walmart and Target. If families boycott it will sting and they will lose them for life. All it would take is a small spark and general public would leave and not look back! Disney anyone?

They already have some people buying less from them. Alan Moon, of Ticket to Ride, has been supporting the communist and fraudulent group BLM and many families have been looking for alternatives. I own almost every SKU from DoW, but have literally thrown away all my Ticket games.

You would have an idea of this but you are most likely in the BGG and Twitter echo-chamber.
      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Lake Express

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July 2007
Re:Game instruction Pronouns Fri, 15 April 2022 00:01
There are plenty of reasons for rules to not only reflect male board game players and a main one is because there are lots of female players who also appreciate being reflected in the rules of the board games they want to play.

Thankfully the number of girls and women playing board games is growing, so it makes sense for the language in the rules to continue changing to welcome everyone into this amazing hobby!
      
Jeronimon
Senior Member
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November 2007
Re:Game instruction Pronouns Fri, 15 April 2022 08:35
CandleWax wrote on Thu, 14 April 2022 05:51

Because, at least for now Days of Wonder is still a family company. I am all for tolerance, but it is grown beyond ridiculous that a small miniscule group(.39%) of people are bullying and demanding that normal society be required to bend the knee to their language desires. Demanding/requesting your pronouns is just as foolish and self-centered as someone demanding their adjectives!

If Days of Wonder starts down this woke path as many game companies have, it will hurt their bottom-line. More so, than other companies due to their product lines in Walmart and Target. If families boycott it will sting and they will lose them for life. All it would take is a small spark and general public would leave and not look back! Disney anyone?

They already have some people buying less from them. Alan Moon, of Ticket to Ride, has been supporting the communist and fraudulent group BLM and many families have been looking for alternatives. I own almost every SKU from DoW, but have literally thrown away all my Ticket games.

You would have an idea of this but you are most likely in the BGG and Twitter echo-chamber.


Where you say: :"I am all for tolerance" to me you are rather forcefully bringing forward your own point of view in na way that you attribute to the minuscule minority.

I have seldomly encountered people from this minuscule group that have been bullying and demanding. aLmost aal of them have been courteous and understanding and overwhelmingly kind in their communication.

Maybe you would have a better understanding if you would have a more open dialogue with some of them.

As for people turning away from a company for being more inclusive I personally find that companies that are more inclusive tend to get more and not less customers. Your example of Disney does not hit the mark I feel. For one Disney is not inclusive, unnless forced by their own workers who seek support form the outside world. And if they do set more inclusie measures I do not see a massive movement of customers away from them. Quite the contrary in fact.

You will probably conclude that I too am "most likely in the BGG and Twitter echo-chamber" but I can assure you that I am not Smile
Furthermore I try to keep an open mind and dialogue.

And a more inclusive way of composing rulebooks can only be good for business, as also supported by the statement of Rasmussen above.
A masssive group of people, families included, will be serviced by more inclusive language in rulebooks and instructions for games.

Happy gaming to everyone Smile
      
Fomalhaut76
Member

Posts: 87
Registered:
January 2012
Re:Game instruction Pronouns Mon, 18 April 2022 10:20
CandleWax wrote on Thu, 14 April 2022 05:51

Because, at least for now Days of Wonder is still a family company. I am all for tolerance, but it is grown beyond ridiculous that a small miniscule group(.39%) of people are bullying and demanding that normal society be required to bend the knee to their language desires. Demanding/requesting your pronouns is just as foolish and self-centered as someone demanding their adjectives!


Which part of society is offended when being called “he” or “him”? Not 0.39 %. Rather I would suppose 39 % (that is, most women). About 50 % (that is, all women) do not use the pronouns “he” or “him” for themself.

Sometime I get the impression that some people actively want to be upset. Thus they read a text as if it had included offensive language, when it is actually and literally completely neutral …

*

By the way: when I write rules for games, I tend not to use gendered pronouns at all. “The player” works well; so does “player A" and "player B”. Passive voice is also great.
      
CandleWax
Junior Member

Posts: 3
Registered:
February 2009
Re:Game instruction Pronouns Tue, 10 May 2022 19:36
"plenty of reasons for rules to not only reflect male board game players and a main one is because there are lots of female players"
- Plenty? Then you continue to name the one and ONLY reason. Very Happy

"Thankfully the number of girls and women playing board games is growing"
- Why would anyone care what gender is playing the game, it is just silly. Do I care about how many men are members of Ravelry? Of course not!!!

Also, the number of women playing/involved with games has been greatly exaggerated. This is due to the whole hobby exploding in the last 10 years, so both there are more women and men. Families and hipsters are the main reason for the explosion and yeah the hipsters girlfriend that loves Catan or the family with their two daughters and wife are going to raise the female player count. The big erroneous assumption of so many more women in gaming comes with the popularity of gaming conventions. Conventions are fun even for someone who played Pandemic once and kind of like it!

I have been involved in the hobby gaming arena(Gaming stores, Large play groups, small play groups, Cons...) since the late 90s and there are more women and other members of minority groups but it is relatively small. EVEN though gaming has been the most OPEN hobby I have every witnessed and has always begged for players of any background. This is probably due to gaming being mostly people of above average IQs.


"I have seldomly encountered people from this minuscule group that have been bullying and demanding. almost all of them have been courteous and understanding and overwhelmingly kind in their communication."
- Most people are cowards in real life. Just dip your toe in twitter, reddit, bgg, or tiktoc to see how very wrong you are.

"Maybe you would have a better understanding if you would have a more open dialogue with some of them."
- Remember what happens when you assume! In my 20s, I spent a good amount of time in some of the biggest gay clubs in the US. I was often on the VIP list and many of my friends were gay. Some of my favorite movies are Rocky Horror and Hedwig and the Angry Inch. Here is the kicker most gay people want the same things as straight people and have no interest in the leftist victim card game.

However, there are a huge amount of gay activist in the hobby gaming world and they tend to be very aggressive on-line and in lobbying type groups.


"companies that are more inclusive tend to get more and not less customers."
- Just like the catch phrase "diversity is our strength" your statement is completely false and just wishful thinking. Disney, Netflix, and others will/have seen the backlash from the normies. You can deny it all you want, but it does not mean you are right. Get woke...go broke...or at least tick-off you shareholders!

"probably conclude that I too am "most likely in the BGG and Twitter echo-chamber"
- Yup

"Which part of society is offended when being called “he” or “him”? Not 0.39 %"
-I was addressing the OP. People that have gender dysphoria make up about 0.39% of the US population.

"By the way: when I write rules for games, I tend not to use gendered pronouns at all"
- See above, the exaggerated women in gaming above.

Also, as I stated before I have been involved in hobby gaming for over 20 years. Sadly there are no good stats, but from my honest experiences gaming is mostly men and even when women are involved they ask/force their men to read the rules. I have seen this in many gaming groups, cons, board game stores and even with friends and family I am close with.

My wife is an engineer with a PhD and speaks in front of groups of hundreds, but if she wants to play a game I have to read the rules. If there is a game she plays and likes, then I am told to go buy that game. This is not the exception but the rule to most people/ groups I have played with. Also, if she happens to look up a rule or decides to read the manual on some crazy leap year she does not care that it uses "he". See normal people are not that egotistical to care at ALL about such an insignificant detail. She and ALL normal people understand that it means He/She. I would not want to play a game with someone so narcissistic if they thought otherwise.


"Sometime I get the impression that some people actively want to be upset. Thus they read a text as if it had included offensive language"
-I would not care at all if a game manual used "her"/"she" or "player" in good faith, but watching the left activists most know it is done by bad actors.

I love debating, but my main point is to Days of Wonder and other Gaming companies once the hipsters get bored and move on(and they will) you need normal families to grow.

If you keep supporting one hit wonders like Alan Moon that has been supporting the Communist and fraudulent group BLM and push other leftist ideas and designers you will lose 80% of the families out there once they catch on. Disney and Netflix are feeling the pain because the normies have finally caught on just a little!

[Updated on: Tue, 10 May 2022 19:51]

      
Jeronimon
Senior Member
Brigadier

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November 2007
Re:Game instruction Pronouns Wed, 11 May 2022 08:05
@Candlewax

Thank you for sharing your experience, opinions and view on the matter.
This gives me a broader view of the world.

You state you love debating but I feel our definitions of that differ. I debate to hear the other person and their arguments. I feel you debate to give your opinion without listening to the other side.

You bring your opinion as fact and support that with examples from your personal experience not allowing any room for people who might have had a different experience. You even go so far as to just state to me personally that I am simply wrong on all things I do not agree with you on.

I will react even though I feel my view will again be met with just another forceful stating of your own opinion again.


"I have seldomly encountered people from this minuscule group that have been bullying and demanding. almost all of them have been courteous and understanding and overwhelmingly kind in their communication."
- Most people are cowards in real life. Just dip your toe in twitter, reddit, bgg, or tiktoc to see how very wrong you are.
Reaction: i fail to see that most people are cowards contradicts my statement that most people from the 0,39 can be kind, courteous and understanding. I feel that even goes against your own statement that these people are bullying and demanding which is very hard to combine with being a coward.
You assume I have not dipped my toe into twitter, Reddit, bgg, tiktok (and probably other examples) but have not asked. Furthermore you state that if I would have done so I would immediately see how wrong I am. My personal experience is that I have “dipped my toe” in several media and there I have encountered people that are cowards bullies meanies and so on. But in my experience I have also encountered people from the 0,39 and they have been mostly kind and courteous.
In the board game community I have found a higher percentage of unpleasant people, but still negligible compared to the board gaming people who are kind and helpful.

"Maybe you would have a better understanding if you would have a more open dialogue with some of them."
- Remember what happens when you assume! In my 20s, I spent a good amount of time in some of the biggest gay clubs in the US. I was often on the VIP list and many of my friends were gay. Some of my favorite movies are Rocky Horror and Hedwig and the Angry Inch. Here is the kicker most gay people want the same things as straight people and have no interest in the leftist victim card game.

However, there are a huge amount of gay activist in the hobby gaming world and they tend to be very aggressive on-line and in lobbying type groups.

I did not assume anything, I merely suggested a course of action. You then react by stating you have been around many gay people and your personal experience is that they mostly want the same as straight people (I agree) then you state there are a huge amount of gays in the hobby gaming world that act aggressively within the community. I again can just offer my own experience as being different and hope that that gives you an opportunity to see that there are more experiences than your own. (Again .thank you for sharing yours, that broadens my view.)

Now this alinea is very personal and reflects my view on you based on the small interaction we have had here so far. Maybe in real life we would have been less adversarial as I feel these kind of discussions are more pleasant when sharing a drink
      
musselcoat
Junior Member

Posts: 2
Registered:
July 2022
Re:Game instruction Pronouns Wed, 13 July 2022 11:01
There are many of reasons for rules to not simply represent male board game players and a big one is that there are plenty of female players who also value being reflected in the rules of the board games they wish to play.

Fortunately, the number of women and girls who like playing board games is rising, and as a result, the terminology used in the rules will continue to evolve to accommodate everyone.

waffle game

[Updated on: Wed, 13 July 2022 11:03]

      
    
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