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Attila
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Victory-conditions of both sides completed! Mon, 16 May 2005 20:40
Hiho,

Just a "real-world" question about the victory:

What happens if victory-conditions of both sides are completed in the same action, e.g. there are 11 swords in camelot (7 white, 4 black) and 10 siege-engines before the walls of camelot and a war is lost, so 1 black sword and 2 siege-engines are added to camelot. Now there are 12 swords (7:5) and 12 siege-engines in camelot. Is camelot fallen?

Atti
      
moofrank
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Re:Victory-conditions of both sides completed! Mon, 16 May 2005 22:24
Hard call. I've not actually thoroughly read the rulebook, but was taught the game by Eric and Mark. There is an overarcing ground rule present in the design:

"If there is a tie, evil wins."

This rule should perhaps apply for this case.

Moo,
Frank


      
Attila
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Re:Victory-conditions of both sides completed! Mon, 16 May 2005 22:35
Hiho,

Yeah, "If there is a tie, evil wins" seem's to be logical to me ... If camelot is fallen (12 siege-engines), it is fallen! Smile

Atti
      
eric
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Re:Victory-conditions of both sides completed! Mon, 16 May 2005 23:21
That is correct indeed. If there are 12 Siege Engines around Camelot when the game ends, it is lost, regardless of the color of the Swords on the Round Table, for Camelot will have been overrun.
eric
      
nocstorm
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Re:Victory-conditions of both sides completed! Sun, 12 June 2005 14:22
I was just going to ask a similar question...
Let's assume that there are 8 white swords and 3 black swords in camelot, for a total of 11 swords. The cards Heroism and Mists of Avalon are in play, and the knights lose The Dragon's Quest, they must add 4 black swords to the Round Table (2 for the quest, 1 for the Heroism-card and 1 for Mists of Avalon), bringing the total to 15 swords (ending the game), with 8 white and 7 black.

Do the knights win (since they have a majority of swords), or do they lose (since there are 7 black swords)?

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Eivind Olsen
      
Attila
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Re:Victory-conditions of both sides completed! Sun, 12 June 2005 14:54
Hiho,

They win, since the game is end by the "12-swords"-clause! (Remember: In this case an unrevealed traitor turn 2 white swords into black and the knigths would lose Smile ).

Atti

[Updated on: Sun, 12 June 2005 14:55]

      
nocstorm
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Re:Victory-conditions of both sides completed! Sun, 12 June 2005 15:58
Let's see. The rules say:

"The Game ends immediately with a loss for all the Loyal Knights if there are: ..... b) 7 or more Black Swords on the Round Table"

and:

"In addition, the game stops immediately after the first Action in which a 12th Sword is lain on the Round Table."

In my example, these two could both happen at once. (Yes I know about the possability of a traitor turning two swords to black, but let's just keep the traitor out of this for the time being Smile

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Eivind Olsen
      
Attila
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Re:Victory-conditions of both sides completed! Sun, 12 June 2005 16:30
Hiho,

Yes i know the rules - but the "7th-sword" rules will be used if there aren't 12 swords in camelot.

Atti
      
Luke the Flaming
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Re:Victory-conditions of both sides completed! Sun, 12 June 2005 19:21
Attila wrote on Sun, 12 June 2005 14:54


They win, since the game is end by the "12-swords"-clause!


You're deciding that the "12-swords-clause" is applied BEFORE the "instant defeat clause", but it's only your interpretation of the rules.
Personally, I'd say that in such a case the knights lose (considering the "immediately" written in the rules when explaining the three "instant defeat cases" and the answer given before by Eric).
      
Attila
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Re:Victory-conditions of both sides completed! Sun, 12 June 2005 20:36
Hiho,

Yeah, both is possible - let us see, what the official answer will be ...

Atti
      
Luke the Flaming
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Re:Victory-conditions of both sides completed! Mon, 13 June 2005 01:03
Attila wrote on Sun, 12 June 2005 20:36

Yeah, both is possible - let us see, what the official answer will be ...


Of course. Smile

I must admit that I'm a bit surprised by the number of "details" uncovered by almost FORTY pages of rules (Rulebook + Book of Quests). Shocked
      
deadeye
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Re:Victory-conditions of both sides completed! Mon, 13 June 2005 18:09
I would think that the balance of swords is more critical than the sheer number of black swords. The "spirit" of the rules would seem to suggest that the 7 black sword rule is contingent on there being fewer white swords than black at the time of placing the 7th.

But, as always, we'll see the official answer soon I imagine...
      
eric
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Re:Victory-conditions of both sides completed! Tue, 14 June 2005 00:40
Just a quick official (I talked with Bruno) confirmation that Deadeye is correct. While 7 black swords is the trigger for "sudden death" during the game, it is taken over by the majority of the swords once there are 12 or more swords on the table. So this particular case would be a victory (assuming no undiscovered Traitor in the mix).
eric
      
kurt1288
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December 2005
Re:Victory-conditions of both sides completed! Sat, 07 January 2006 04:33
interesting topic that I think helped me, considering our last game ended in the way first described
      
wmreed
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Re:Victory-conditions of both sides completed! Mon, 23 January 2006 01:51
My understanding of the first paragraph on page 18 of the English rules suggests that the total number of white and black swords are tallied separately, and the majority wins.

However, another part of the original post mentioned having 12 seige engines. If I read the last sentence on page 11 of the English rules correctly, it is implied that when the 12th seige engine is placed the loyal knights lose immeadiately. I interpret this to mean that, despite the amount of good they've accomplished (as represented by the white swords) they have let Camelot fall, and the game is lost.
      
atefec
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Re:Victory-conditions of both sides completed! Mon, 23 January 2006 10:07
wmreed schrieb am Mon, 23 January 2006 01:51

I interpret this to mean that, despite the amount of good they've accomplished (as represented by the white swords) they have let Camelot fall, and the game is lost.

Absolute correct. If Camelot has fallen because of the siege engines the game is lost, no matter how many white swords have been collected.
      
    
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