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Monsieur B
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Close Combat and Taking Ground Wed, 04 October 2006 00:03
As we found no evidence neither in the rules, nor in the official FAQ, this message is specially dedicated to Richard Borg...

On the French forum, we encountered a problem concerning the Close Combat card.

If an Armoured Unit is activated with a Close Combat card and eliminates the enemy unit, it can of course take ground. But can it then attack an enemy unit that would not be adjacent?

I hope my English is good enough to be understandable!

[Updated on: Wed, 04 October 2006 00:05]

      
Brummbar
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Wed, 04 October 2006 00:20
Good question...

I actually did run into this situation and had my wife put me in my place. My armor overran an infantry unit and destroyed it. The next nearest target was 3 hexes away. I tried to take a shot but she quickly pointed out that is was close assault only.

When looking at the FAQs I saw that she was correct.
"Q. When playing the close assault card-can a unit designated to close assault still fire if the unit he was to close assault is no longer adjacent to him?
A. No - Units ordered may only close assault."

While the first part isn't directly applicable the second part certainly is. So the armor unit was originally ordered and may conduct an overrun but only if the unit it is attacking is still a close assault.

That's my take anyway.
      
RBorg
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Wed, 04 October 2006 02:59
Lbouy wrote on Tue, 03 October 2006 18:03


On the French forum, we encountered a problem concerning the Close Combat card.

If an Armoured Unit is activated with a Close Combat card and eliminates the enemy unit, it can of course take ground. But can it then attack an enemy unit that would not be adjacent?

I hope my English is good enough to be understandable!


Your English is perfect!

The Close Assault card states - Issues an order to all Infantry and Armor units adjacent to enemy units. Units order battle with 1 additional die. Units may not move before they battle -

If you have a large number of units being ordered to close assault, we suggest to avoid possible confusion that you mark all the units you can order, because retreats and eliminating units may change the eligibility of units that can close assault.

The second part of the card states - but, after a successful Close Assault, they may Take Ground and Armor units may make an Armor Overrun.

We always treated Armor units that made a successful Close Assault would follow the Armor Overrun rules as in the core rule book page 11. - If the ground you take during the Overrun puts you adjacent to an enemy unit, this second battle must once again be a normal Close Combat (no 1 additional die). Otherwise the armor unit may fire at a distant unit. -

Hope this helps!
Richard Borg
      
Brummbar
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Wed, 04 October 2006 06:08
I can't wait to tell my wife!

Thanks Richard.
      
Monsieur B
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Wed, 04 October 2006 06:31
Thank you for your quick answer, Richard.
I will now transmit it to the guys of the French forum!
      
Yves Van Herp
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Wed, 04 October 2006 20:14
Brummbär wrote on Wed, 04 October 2006 00:08

I can't wait to tell my wife!

Thanks Richard.


I'll have to tell mine also! Laughing
      
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Tue, 31 October 2006 22:20
Ok, actually ran into this in an online battle with Tank Commander.

I remembered this post so we did allow the overrun to occur but the only target was at range. We couldn't find this post so we assumed (correctly) that the attacking unit wouldn't get the additional die bonus. Having said that...I think this could easily be misiterpreted. The card simply states units ordered do get an additional die...no conditions so you would need to know this faq to make that decision otherwise I think people would make the assumption that 1) Only close assaults are allowed (as my wife did) and 2) that the additional die would allpy if armor overran and made another close assault.

On another yet similar note...

I actually couldn't beleive I hadn't come across this one before but...when armor leaves a hedgerow and meets the conditions to make an overrun can it?

The only thing I could find on this was the hedgerow rule itself which does state "A unit that leaves a Hedgerow hex may only move onto an adjacent hex." No mention of overruns at all...we played that an armored unit could...but couldn't back that claim up. Did I miss something somewhere?
      
yangtze
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Tue, 31 October 2006 23:25
Good question.

I don't like the rule that prevents a unit entering a hedgerow hex, even if they close assault defenders out of it, unless they started their movement next to the hex in question. I think it would be easier to play and more intuitive if it a unit had to start the phase next to the hex (i.e. if it began the combat phase next to the hex it could take ground into it).

I suspect your armour can't take ground on exit, otherwise there's (to my mind) an inconsistency with the entry rule, but I might be wrong...

[Updated on: Tue, 31 October 2006 23:26]

      
coyote58
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Wed, 01 November 2006 08:27
That show the fact you need to read the scenario with your partner, look to the tiles and ask those questions BEFORE ANY GAMES. i don't remember from one game to the others what we decide for some rules like that. But that is part of that kind of game Very Happy Just decide before to avoid any problem and have fun (personnaly, i always forget the rules about taking ground after combat involving barbwire. i really try, but always forgot... Embarassed )
      
yangtze
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Wed, 01 November 2006 10:39
That's fine for fun / face to face games but if you're playing competition games, pbem games, or even on VASSAL such things can be a pain. No games designer can cover every possible eventuality in the rules of even the best playtested games, but it's better to have a clear 'official' ruling for grey areas as they arise to avoid future disagreements/confusion.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Wed, 01 November 2006 16:03
The restriction to hex row exiting only applies to the movement phase. So if you start the turn in a hedgerow and battle, you can make an AO to an adjacent hex and continue your AO. If you start your turn in a hedgerow, move out one space and battle, you may also AO if the conditions exist.
      
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Wed, 01 November 2006 17:25
ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 01 November 2006 07:03

The restriction to hex row exiting only applies to the movement phase. So if you start the turn in a hedgerow and battle, you can make an AO to an adjacent hex and continue your AO. If you start your turn in a hedgerow, move out one space and battle, you may also AO if the conditions exist.


I can surmise that as well but prove it.

That is the catch. I couldn't find anywhere that AO can take place. The only similar movement restriction would be beaches where the rules state "A unit may still Take
Ground after a successful Close Assault Combat." If it is stated there....why not state it in hedgerows?

Again, I think you are absolutely correct but as the situation occurred I soon realised we just couldn't definitely say that they could AO based on the rules or FAQs. Like Yangtze has pointed out, when playing competitively it is good to be able to support anything that is done during the game.
      
tank commander
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Wed, 01 November 2006 22:56
ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 01 November 2006 10:03

The restriction to hex row exiting only applies to the movement phase.


I thought there was something (either in the rules or from a Q & A) that stated taking ground was different from regular movement.

Which would mean that movement restrictions would not apply to taking ground other than where a certain unit could not enter that type of terrain.
      
yangtze
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Wed, 01 November 2006 23:09
Yeah, there's a bit of confusion here, but I'm sure Richard confirmed you cannot take ground into hedgerow if you didn't start movement next to it. Not sure about taking ground coming out...
      
Brummbar
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Wed, 01 November 2006 23:21
From the FAQs -

Q. Can a unit take ground beyond its normal movement capacity (i.e. infantry special units move 2, close assault, have a successful close assault and take the ground, making a move of 3 spaces)?
A. Special movements (i.e. Taking Ground and Armor Overrun) take place during Step 4 - Battle and are in addition to the unit normal movement.

This is the closest evidence that would support the fact that armor can move out of a hedgerow (just one hex) conduct a close assault and if allowed, can conduct an armored overrun.

Ok, just needed to clarify that for my own piece of mind, it certainly didn't have any huge impact on the game, it was just that I was a little stunned and realised I never really thought about it before.

      
tank commander
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Thu, 02 November 2006 12:18
Brummbär wrote on Wed, 01 November 2006 17:21

From the FAQs -

Q. Can a unit take ground beyond its normal movement capacity (i.e. infantry special units move 2, close assault, have a successful close assault and take the ground, making a move of 3 spaces)?
A. Special movements (i.e. Taking Ground and Armor Overrun) take place during Step 4 - Battle and are in addition to the unit normal movement.

This is the closest evidence that would support the fact that armor can move out of a hedgerow (just one hex) conduct a close assault and if allowed, can conduct an armored overrun.

Ok, just needed to clarify that for my own piece of mind, it certainly didn't have any huge impact on the game, it was just that I was a little stunned and realised I never really thought about it before.




Yes - that is the section I was talking about.
      
yangtze
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Thu, 02 November 2006 12:20
Yeah, but I took that as evidence that you can close assault into a hedgerow if you didn't start next to the hex, and I was wrong! Smile
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Thu, 02 November 2006 14:35
Brummbär wrote on Wed, 01 November 2006 10:25

That is the catch. I couldn't find anywhere that AO can take place. The only similar movement restriction would be beaches where the rules state "A unit may still Take
Ground after a successful Close Assault Combat." If it is stated there....why not state it in hedgerows?

My only thought on this is that you have a movement restriction on beaches but you may still battle the same turn. So you needed to clarify the ability to continue "moving" if you had a successful battle.

With hedgerows, there is no battle the turn you move into its hex so no clarification is needed on the battle phase - 'cause there ain't one! That would imply to me that when you start your turn on a hedgerow and choose to battle, you have no restriction. Since you have no restriction, normal Armor Overrun rules apply.


yangtze wrote on Thu, 02 November 2006 05:20

Yeah, but I took that as evidence that you can close assault into a hedgerow if you didn't start next to the hex, and I was wrong! Smile

Now, why you couldn't take ground into a hedgerow if you battled next to it after moving more than one space doesn't really make sense given the other rules. If movement and battle are two seperate phases, why does the movement restriction limit the battle phase?

Sounds like another case of sloppily worded responses/rules that can't be interpolated by the players. Probably best to get an official ruling on this one.

[Updated on: Thu, 02 November 2006 14:42]

      
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Thu, 02 November 2006 17:38
ColtsFan76 wrote on Thu, 02 November 2006 05:35

Brummbär wrote on Wed, 01 November 2006 10:25

That is the catch. I couldn't find anywhere that AO can take place. The only similar movement restriction would be beaches where the rules state "A unit may still Take
Ground after a successful Close Assault Combat." If it is stated there....why not state it in hedgerows?

My only thought on this is that you have a movement restriction on beaches but you may still battle the same turn. So you needed to clarify the ability to continue "moving" if you had a successful battle.

With hedgerows, there is no battle the turn you move into its hex so no clarification is needed on the battle phase - 'cause there ain't one! That would imply to me that when you start your turn on a hedgerow and choose to battle, you have no restriction. Since you have no restriction, normal Armor Overrun rules apply.


I am talking about when an armored unit leaves the hedgerow not entering it. The rules state that it can only move adjjacent to the hedgerow on exit, it can still fire. Thus my comparison with the beaches which make a specific point of saying you can still take ground while it doesn't mention it for leaving hedgerows.

But the point is moot thanks to the FAQ above.


      
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Thu, 02 November 2006 17:54
ColtsFan76 wrote on Thu, 02 November 2006 05:35


yangtze wrote on Thu, 02 November 2006 05:20

Yeah, but I took that as evidence that you can close assault into a hedgerow if you didn't start next to the hex, and I was wrong! Smile

Now, why you couldn't take ground into a hedgerow if you battled next to it after moving more than one space doesn't really make sense given the other rules. If movement and battle are two seperate phases, why does the movement restriction limit the battle phase?

Sounds like another case of sloppily worded responses/rules that can't be interpolated by the players. Probably best to get an official ruling on this one.


I recall this is actually quite an old argument but it was FAQ'd.

Q. If an armor unit successfully Close Assaults a unit in Woods (or Hedgerows or Town) and Takes Ground, can it perform Overrun Combat, or does the terrain prevent it?
A. An armor unit that successfully Close Assaults a unit on a Forest or Town hex may Take Ground, but it may not battle, per terrain rules.

An armor unit that successfully Close Assaults a unit on a Hedgerow hex may Take Ground only if it started adjacent to the Hedgerow hex. If it did start adjacent, it may Take Ground but it may not battle per terrain rules.

Although I do see your point ColtsFan. In this case though it would seem very contradictory to the nature of terrain if an infantry unit has to start it's movement adjacent to a hedgerow to get into it but an armored unit could charge 3 hexes, conduct a successful overrun attack and get in there the same turn. I think this would be more a case of following the spirit of the law rather than the letter (which, imo works here too though).
      
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Mon, 04 June 2007 07:08
Brummbär wrote on Tue, 31 October 2006 13:20



I remembered this post so we did allow the overrun to occur but the only target was at range. We couldn't find this post so we assumed (correctly) that the attacking unit wouldn't get the additional die bonus. Having said that...I think this could easily be misiterpreted. The card simply states units ordered do get an additional die...no conditions so you would need to know this faq to make that decision otherwise I think people would make the assumption that 1) Only close assaults are allowed (as my wife did) and 2) that the additional die would apply if armor overran and made another close assault.



Ran into this again...

I pulled a close assault and ordered an armoured unit. Eliminated the unit I was attacking and could now attack at range. However, do I still get the +1 die to the roll?

For the record the card does say 'ordered' units get an additional die but my wife is claiming it would only apply to a close assault and not on the overrun attack at range...

Going by the card, I would say that I would...but decided to avoid the domestic (she was losing anyway).

For the record...do they get the +1 even at range?
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Mon, 04 June 2007 07:16
No official word but I thought group consensus was that the +1 die only applied to close combats not ranged attack. Seems the wording is a bit loose but the title of the card hints at the intent.
      
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Mon, 04 June 2007 16:49
ColtsFan76 wrote on Sun, 03 June 2007 22:16

No official word but I thought group consensus was that the +1 die only applied to close combats not ranged attack. Seems the wording is a bit loose but the title of the card hints at the intent.


The title also gave me the impression that only Close Assaults could happen too and look where that went.
      
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Tue, 05 June 2007 05:11
ok guys... go look at the third entry to this thread... Richard posted to it and he is about as official as it gets...

      
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Tue, 05 June 2007 06:06
Randwulf wrote on Mon, 04 June 2007 20:11

ok guys... go look at the third entry to this thread... Richard posted to it and he is about as official as it gets...





Confused

Being able to read helps

Thanks for the second set of eyes Randwulf!
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Close Combat and Taking Ground Tue, 05 June 2007 15:23
Randwulf wrote on Mon, 04 June 2007 22:11

ok guys... go look at the third entry to this thread... Richard posted to it and he is about as official as it gets...



Embarassed
      
    
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