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SHwoKing
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Retreat choice ? Wed, 13 December 2006 23:22
We have a discussion on the french forum about a special case in retreat.

Let's do it with pictures :

http://shwoking.free.fr/retraite%20possible%201.jpg

The blue infantery must reatreat 2 hex.

Is this retreat possible ?

http://shwoking.free.fr/retraite%20possible%202.jpg

You lose one figure for this but gain the support for the next attack (not the bonus attack of course) so it could have some benefit. Just wonder if it was possible though.

For me it is not, but some say it is.
      
monkeylite
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Re:Retreat choice ? Wed, 13 December 2006 23:28
Very interesting, and nice pictures.

But, I've no idea. As just a personal choice, I'd probably not allow it, either.
      
stenic
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Re:Retreat choice ? Wed, 13 December 2006 23:37
Can't see why you'd disallow it. It is the owner's choice which way they retreat, chosing 1 hex at a time. That they chose to deliberately sacrifice a figure for gain later is up to them.

Steve P
      
steve_hill
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Re:Retreat choice ? Wed, 13 December 2006 23:41
stenic wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 22:37

Can't see why you'd disallow it. It is the owner's choice which way they retreat, chosing 1 hex at a time. That they chose to deliberately sacrifice a figure for gain later is up to them.

Steve P


Steve's must stick together. I'd probably allow it too. Not that what I think carries any weight!

Steve.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 00:43
Interesting.

When a flag is rolled against you, you must retreat. You never have the option to stay and choose to lose a figure. The point being you couldn't opt to sacrifce a figure in order to stand you ground and battle back.

However, since you already retreated one hex, the opportunity to battle back is already cancelled and the attacker retains any possible follow-on moves. I would say that the above illustration is acceptable. Not sure why you would want to lose a figure but I suppose what is adjacent to thos other hexes might make it worth your while. Plus you also just created a bold triangle.
      
tastic
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 01:17
Regrouping to the right of the center infantry seems like the stronger choice. Sure, you only have one bold unit that way, but it also forces the aggressor to come closer to perform a persuit attack. Given your choice, you protect one unit from possible damage, but give the opponent an additional chance to hit a weakened unit or force an impossible retreat forcing more losses with no visible reprisal. I don't know what position on the board the two healthy units are located for other retreat issues. There is that bold triangle which lessens further potential damage to units, but not by much. IF I were the standard player in that situation, I would allow it since the odds remain in my favor, and especially if I could roll through with more units during my next attack. Iffy.

[Updated on: Thu, 14 December 2006 01:27]

      
RBorg
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 03:11
SHwoKing wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 17:22

We have a discussion on the french forum about a special case in retreat.

Let's do it with pictures :

http://shwoking.free.fr/retraite%20possible%201.jpg

The blue infantery must reatreat 2 hex.

Is this retreat possible ?

http://shwoking.free.fr/retraite%20possible%202.jpg

You lose one figure for this but gain the support for the next attack (not the bonus attack of course) so it could have some benefit. Just wonder if it was possible though.

For me it is not, but some say it is.



Please take another look at page 25 and 26 in the Player's Guide for the correct answer.

Richard Borg
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 03:17
That's clear as mud!!!

Are you saying we were incorrect because a unit must retreat 2 hexes since two flags were rolled? And since there is a way to move the 2 hexes, the unit must retreat along that path? All flags are treated together once the rolling is done, so this seems to be the case.

But on the other hand....

[Updated on: Thu, 14 December 2006 03:18]

      
orcbreath
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 03:38
While i'm in the Retreat section from my thread..
The 3rd sentence say ''For each Retreat Flag rolled against it, the target unit 'must' move one hex back towards its own side of the battleboard.

Now if that far right rear hex was blocked.....
I guess he'd stop @ the 1st left hex & take a hit!?!?!?

[Updated on: Thu, 14 December 2006 03:45]

      
tastic
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 06:26
I'm at work so I cannot check. I guess if there is an available path which will force no casualties, then it must be taken. Still, based on the picture given, there is no statistical advantage in choosing to lose a troop in order to gain bold status. Maybe it is a dummy rule meant to keep players from taking a disadvantage when not forced.
      
SHwoKing
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 09:09
For me Richard's answer means that it is not possible as a unit MUST retreat a number of hex equal to the number of flags.

Funny things is that some very experienced players said it was possible Razz .

Cause there was another use if this retreat was possible : if the attacked unit was a creature, then she could deliberately try to trample units at the bottom. Assuming those units were enemies, it could have been usefull, very rare though.
      
GhostWolf69
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Re: Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 10:22
In my humble opinion Richard's answer is a non-answer. He's just telling us to read the rules again... Very Happy

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think we all have been reading then six or seven times back and forth by now and we are still having this discussion, so what is telling us to read the same passage an eighth time going to accomplish? Rolling Eyes

When rules are not expressed with enough detail they can always be interpreted in manny different ways, and the lack of examples that covers "strange" situations like this just make it worse.

I thought these boards were here so that we could ask for help when the rule book is not helping... Ah well... Meh.

/wolf
      
steve_hill
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Re: Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 11:02
I re-read the section in question and I stick by my earlier view that the retreat should be allowed.

The rules state that the controlling player decides which hex (not hexes) to move into. There is nothing in the following bullets that implies the need to consider the whole retreat path. You just apply the rules for each hex of retreat taken.

Still I am prepared to be told I am wrong.

Steve.


      
GhostWolf69
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Re: Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 11:07
steve_hill wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 11:02



Still I am prepared to be told I am wrong.

Steve.



Or be told to read it again... Laughing

...Erhm... sorry, I couldn't resist...

/wolf
      
stenic
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 11:13
RBorg wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 02:11




Please take another look at page 25 and 26 in the Player's Guide for the correct answer.

Richard Borg


Well, that actully confirms to me that it is possible.

Page 25. We all agree it is 1 hex per flag... then, last sentence before the bullet points at the botton of the page:

"The player controlling the unit decides which hex his unit retreats onto using the following rules:"

So, to me I chose each hex on its own merits, 1 hex at a time. It does say 'hex', not path orh anything else

Then the bullet points (to which these these apply to each indvidual hex:

I choose to take the left hex first

1. A unit must retreat toward its controlling player's side.

OK, we all agree the retreating unit in the example can only go into the 2 hexes below it in the diagram. No rule broken

2. Terrain has no effect on retreat moves, ....

Nothing applies here - but it could easily an impassable river in the example causing the blocked hex. No rule broken.

3. A unit may not retreat onto, or through, a hex already containing another unit.

No rule broken here either.

4. If a unit cannot retreat because...etc

Still no rule broken assuming you apply the rule for each hex it is on at that time.


I then decide to chose my next hex... but come under bullet 4 so lose a figure.

My interpretation assumes you apply the rules at each hex one at a time.


GhostWolf69 wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 09:22

In my humble opinion Richard's answer is a non-answer. He's just telling us to read the rules again... Very Happy

I thought these boards were here so that we could ask for help when the rule book is not helping... Ah well... Meh.

/wolf


True, a 'yes' or 'no' would have saved a lot of bandwidth. And if I'm wrong then I have to apologise for previous remarks in another thread on the rulebook re Morale scetion and come over to your side Wolf Embarassed Razz

Steve P

[Updated on: Thu, 14 December 2006 11:15]

      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 11:33
stenic wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 11:13


True, a 'yes' or 'no' would have saved a lot of bandwidth. And if I'm wrong then I have to apologise for previous remarks in another thread on the rulebook re Morale scetion and come over to your side Wolf Embarassed Razz

Steve P


No need to apologise for anything friend. It just a book with text in it. People read it and interpret the text differently. If the text is extremely vague then interpretations will differ widely and arguments back and forth will arise. (did I just mention something about the Bible or was it just the feeling I got in my stomach? Shocked )

I just think that if me, like so manny of you here, veteran wargamer for over 30 years, have trouble deciding which way to read the rules.... then they are probably not that well written and could do with an overhaul. The ammount of questions arising here on these boards are further proof if you ask me. Like I said somewhere else, Memoir44 was crystal clear to me and we all got it at once and played and had fun. BattleLore.... we still play and have fun but questions about the rules pop up all the time.

Regardless, you are welcome to "my side" anytime you feel like it, with or without apology. Razz

/wolf
      
Eruanion
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 13:46
Doesn't the picture on p26 captioned "With another unit in the way, only one retreat path remains" make it clear that a unit is obliged to take the retreat path that allows it to retreat as far as possible?
      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 13:51
Eruanion wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 13:46

Doesn't the picture on p26 captioned "With another unit in the way, only one retreat path remains" make it clear that a unit is obliged to take the retreat path that allows it to retreat as far as possible?


I don't know... does it? Laughing

/wolf
      
ColtsFan77
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Re: Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 13:58
GhostWolf69 wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 03:22

In my humble opinion Richard's answer is a non-answer. He's just telling us to read the rules again... Very Happy

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think we all have been reading then six or seven times back and forth by now and we are still having this discussion, so what is telling us to read the same passage an eighth time going to accomplish? Rolling Eyes

I have to agree fully with you here. My assumption is that we can't choose to loose a figure when there is a viable retreat possible. And my only reason for that is we all said it was possible. If we were right, he would have probably said so.

So what wins out? The part that the retreater has a *choice* or that a player *must* retreat the full number of hexes? Not that the rules are contradictory but one must have precedence over the other.
      
SHwoKing
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 14:00
GhostWolf69 écrit le Thu, 14 December 2006 13:51

Eruanion wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 13:46

Doesn't the picture on p26 captioned "With another unit in the way, only one retreat path remains" make it clear that a unit is obliged to take the retreat path that allows it to retreat as far as possible?


I don't know... does it? Laughing

/wolf


I must say, i agree with you, nothing say in the rules that retreat is treated hex by hex. And nothing say that you got to choose for a completely units free path if you have to retreat more than one hex.

So everyone can argue for days. Without a clear answer by Dow, who knows which side is right ?

[Updated on: Thu, 14 December 2006 14:01]

      
steve_hill
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 14:08
GhostWolf69 wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 12:51

Eruanion wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 13:46

Doesn't the picture on p26 captioned "With another unit in the way, only one retreat path remains" make it clear that a unit is obliged to take the retreat path that allows it to retreat as far as possible?


I don't know... does it? Laughing

/wolf


No, I don't think so Confused

Steve.
      
gheintze
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 15:30
It's clear to me that the unit must retreat two hexes. The rules say "if the unit cannot retreat" -- However this unit CAN retreat two hexes and therefore must do that. The retreat is not stepwise -- but a single movement of two hexes.

This does not take into account that it is the best strategic move to retreat two hexes and not lose the unit... Very Happy

Geoff
      
Eric the Red
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 15:44
I agree - the rule is that a unit must retreat a number of hexes equal to the number of flags. One cannot choose not to do that.

The bullet points on p. 25-26 are all in that context. One can no more, upon getting 'n' flags, choose (as versus be forced by having no legal path) to run into a dead end at 'n-1' hexes than they can choose to not retreat at all. The *context* of the movement is "For each Retreat Flag rolled against it, the target unit must move one hex back towards its own side of the battlefield." The player controlling the units must make the hex by hex decisions in that context.

[Updated on: Thu, 14 December 2006 15:45]

      
DarkPadawan2
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 16:06
Eric the Red schrieb am Thu, 14 December 2006 15:44

I agree - the rule is that a unit must retreat a number of hexes equal to the number of flags. One cannot choose not to do that.

The bullet points on p. 25-26 are all in that context. One can no more, upon getting 'n' flags, choose (as versus be forced by having no legal path) to run into a dead end at 'n-1' hexes than they can choose to not retreat at all. The *context* of the movement is "For each Retreat Flag rolled against it, the target unit must move one hex back towards its own side of the battlefield." The player controlling the units must make the hex by hex decisions in that context.




...and the third in a row to agree.

Although a standard retreat is not the panicked fleeing of nasty goblins Very Happy it is nonetheless a retreat forced by an attack of enemy forces and nothing a unit does deliberately.

In other words, if I am to retreat, I will do that as far as possible and not choose to stay and take some more beating... even if it happens in front of friendly units Laughing

Dark.
      
nix342
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 16:40
I don't have the fancy graphics, but consider this question in a slightly different context.

...Mad...Mad
........Sad...Sad
.............Sad

Mad are attacking Sad. Mad attacks the leftmost Sad with his leftmost Mad, causing a retreat. Should Sad be allowed to stand and take the figure loss rather than retreat one hex? Clearly it would be beneficial to do so, helping the rightmost Sad in it's upcoming attack from the rightmost Mad. I think the answer is no. This situation is really no different than the one presented. So, I agree that if there is an open retreat path, the unit must take it.

Now, that said, this would make a really cool special ability for some future race. Undead mindless attacking, perhaps? I guess then they would be required to take flags as hits. Noble sacrifice of elves?

[Updated on: Thu, 14 December 2006 16:44]

      
steve_hill
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 16:56
nix342 wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 15:40

I don't have the fancy graphics, but consider this question in a slightly different context...



I think this is a different question -- if I understand your graphic correctly. If there is an available hex behind you, you should take it.

The question is whether troops look several hexes ahead to see where they should go when fleeing. I am in the camp that they pick a hex at a time. If there are two free hexes available behind them, they can take either, then make a new decision from their new hex based on their new situation.

However, the argument seems to be swaying towards lending greater weight to the rule that says units must retreat a given number of hexes, so the unit must plan its retreat carefully to avoid getting stuck.

Until we get a defintive ruling from DoW, this one will run and run (sorry couldn't resist the pun Smile )

Steve.

(edited the first para as it was confusing)

[Updated on: Thu, 14 December 2006 18:48]

      
crumbb
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 18:02
I'm in the choose 1 hex at a time interpretation camp. FWIW.
      
Bigland
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 18:28
GhostWolf69 wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 10:33

If the text is extremely vague then interpretations will differ widely and arguments back and forth will arise. (did I just mention something about the Bible or was it just the feeling I got in my stomach? Shocked )

Of course, pedantry and bloody-mindedness can create arguments too... Wink
      
MaineRook
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 18:39
I'm in the 1 flag at a time camp because it's for "each" flag, not for "every" flag. But maybe I'm just being nit-picky...

Edit - Also, you as the commander are in control of the unit. You can't prevent the retreat, but you can force the retreat one direction or the other. So it's not the retreating unit's foresight to see 2 hexes away what's the best move, it's the commander's...

[Updated on: Thu, 14 December 2006 18:42]

      
Eric the Red
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 19:59
MaineRook wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 12:39

Also, you as the commander are in control of the unit. You can't prevent the retreat, but you can force the retreat one direction or the other. So it's not the retreating unit's foresight to see 2 hexes away what's the best move, it's the commander's...


I disagree. Retreat in this case (forced by combat, distance determined by combat, inability to Battle Back if moving) means that the commander is not in control.

If one can choose the direction of retreat so as to reduce the distance it creates a stuation where a worse result (more flags) can give the recipient more options. The 'cone' in which one can potentially move towards one's edge expands with each hex, giving a unit with a worse result (hit harder, more flags rolled and forced to retreat more) more options than a unit with a better result. Hardly in keeping with the idea that a Flag is an adverse result of combat.
      
New Zombie
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 20:03
gheintze wrote on Fri, 15 December 2006 03:30

It's clear to me that the unit must retreat two hexes. The rules say "if the unit cannot retreat" -- However this unit CAN retreat two hexes and therefore must do that. The retreat is not stepwise -- but a single movement of two hexes.

Geoff


i agree with geoff. otherwise you could place a single unit behind a dwarven unit thus ensuring a battleback for those bold dwarves.
      
Eric the Red
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 20:16
There is a need for a ruling, IMO, but not for the example of the OP.

Even if the distance is mandated if it is possible, the question arises if it is not possible. For example, if a unit must retreat 3 hexes, and only two paths are available neither of which goes for 3 hexes - say one that goes 1 hex and one that goes 2 hexes - does the retreating unit have to go the 2 hex route?

I would say yes, but it implies that there's a rule that one must go as far as possible in a retreat even if the all paths are insuficient. Debatable to say the least. Smile

All that said, I find the rules overall very well written. Rule writing is hard, but these rules appear really tight for all that. Not flawless, but then I doubt any wargame can have 100% clear, no-other-interpretation-possible, rules written for it.
      
MaineRook
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 20:32
Eric the Red wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 14:16

Rule writing is hard, but these rules appear really tight for all that. Not flawless, but then I doubt any wargame can have 100% clear, no-other-interpretation-possible, rules written for it.

I agree with that.

I guess in my mind I'm picturing a unit retreating toward safety (their own side of the field). In panic - they will choose the path that gets them the closest to their goal. But a good commander, seeing that his unit is going to panic and run stands behind them - brow beats them if he has to - and diverts them toward the path that is more advantageous for him. He can't prevent the retreat, but he can control which way (left or right) they flee.

That coupled with the wording "for each" makes me believe that you can retreat the 1 hex to the left for the first flag, then have your retreat option cut off for the second flag. If these were frightened units and they had to retreat 2 hexes per flag - then I would be inclined to say that they must take the path that lets them retreat two hexes for the first flag, then choose again to retreat another two hexes for the second flag.

I'm hanging it all on the "for each" wording - and maybe I'm totally wrong. Embarassed
      
RBorg
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 21:52
Q. Is the retreat possible in SHwoKing's example?
A. Yes

Sorry about not being more specific before...
But there are many possibilities to consider when a unit must retreat and sometimes the answer to a specific example will confuse rather than cover the situation.

Retreat rule - After hits have been resolved and casualties removed, for each flag rolled against a unit that it cannot ignore, the unit must move back one hex* toward its own side of the battlefield.
Key point in this sentence is that the unit must move back? if possible the unit MUST move back toward its own side of the battlefield. If one hex is blocked but the other hex does not have a blocking unit, impassable terrain, limits of battlefield the unit must move back onto this hex on its retreat.

*Note that a goblin and a creature actually will retreat two hexes for each flag the unit cannot ignore.

Retreat rule - The player controlling the unit decides which hex his unit retreats onto.
Key point in this sentence is that the controlling player decides which hex the unit moves onto during its retreat. The unit is moved one hex at a time. When a unit must retreat 2 hexes (like the Blue unit in SHwoKing's example) the first hex is moved onto and then the second hex. Which hex the unit moves back onto each retreat move is a separate decision.

SHwoKing's example states:
The blue infantry must retreat 2 hexes.
The controlling player moved the unit back onto a hex that prevents the unit from retreating another hex. The other choice for the first move back would have been to move the blue retreating unit onto the hex on the right.

Because the first retreat hex has placed the unit in a situation that prevents it from retreating a second hex, the unit must lose one figure.

Retreat rule - (fourth bullet) If a unit cannot retreat because its retreat path is totally blocked by other units, impassable terrain, limits of battlefield one figure must be removed from the unit for each retreat hex of movement that cannot be completed.

SHwoKing points out that you lose one figure for this but gain the support for the next attack. I'm not sure if losing a figure is a good tactic here, need to see the rest of the battlefield, check if I am ahead in captured banners and of course look at my command cards again ;o)

Hope this helps?
Richard Borg
      
steve_hill
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 23:32
Excellent. Case closed I think. Many thanks, Richard.
      
JMcL63
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Re:Retreat choice ? Thu, 14 December 2006 23:39
So I think we have it: you can conduct retreats in such a way that a unit sacrifices models. I must confess I didn't expect this call from Richard, but why not after all? We can already take advantage of retreats to regroup through careful choice of retreat paths, so the sacrificial retreat just adds to the options available. Nice one. Wink
      
Jude
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Re:Retreat choice ? Fri, 15 December 2006 00:23
Hmm, the way I understood what he wrote was:

A unit MUST retreat for each flag that it cannot ignore--if there is a choice, the unit must move to an open hex. It doesn't have the option of taking a hit instead. But, it doesn't have to retreat optimally, meaning that a hex it retreats into doesn't have to lead to a path of further retreat--it can lead into a "dead end" blocked units or impassible terrrain, causing hits if further retreating is required.

Jude
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Retreat choice ? Fri, 15 December 2006 00:59
I thought his example was quite clear.

1) If a retreating unit has two open fields, it may retreat to either - 100% free choice

2) If the unit has one blocked and one free hex, it must choose the free hex. You can never choose to sacrifice a unit to remain on the hex; if you have a retreat avaialbe, you must take it.

3) If both hexes are blocked, you lose a figure and stay where you are.

They key to this is that *each hex* that one is forced to retreat is treated *seperately*. So in the case presented to us, we look at the first hex of the retreat. The first hex present us with situation 1 above so we have free choice to move to either hex. And in this particular case, the hex we choose will leave us with either Situation 2 or Situation 3.

So we may freely choose to move to the hex from situation 1 to choose the next situation we are presented with. We may choose then to go to a path that blocks us forcing us to loose a figure or choose a path that allows us to continue to retreat and save a figure.

This situation has come up a few times in my games in Memoir 44 but it has never been desirable to lose a figure so I have always gone the path of least resistance in multiple-hex retreats.
      
tastic
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Re:Retreat choice ? Fri, 15 December 2006 02:03
Man, I come back after reading the rules only to find the question answered clearly.
      
shryke
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Re:Retreat choice ? Fri, 15 December 2006 07:02
ColtsFan76 wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 18:59

I thought his example was quite clear.

1) If a retreating unit has two open fields, it may retreat to either - 100% free choice

2) If the unit has one blocked and one free hex, it must choose the free hex. You can never choose to sacrifice a unit to remain on the hex; if you have a retreat avaialbe, you must take it.

3) If both hexes are blocked, you lose a figure and stay where you are.

They key to this is that *each hex* that one is forced to retreat is treated *seperately*. So in the case presented to us, we look at the first hex of the retreat. The first hex present us with situation 1 above so we have free choice to move to either hex. And in this particular case, the hex we choose will leave us with either Situation 2 or Situation 3.

So we may freely choose to move to the hex from situation 1 to choose the next situation we are presented with. We may choose then to go to a path that blocks us forcing us to loose a figure or choose a path that allows us to continue to retreat and save a figure.

This situation has come up a few times in my games in Memoir 44 but it has never been desirable to lose a figure so I have always gone the path of least resistance in multiple-hex retreats.



Yeah, I'm 100% sure this is exactly what he meant. Since each retreat step is handled seperately, you can manuveur yourself into a situation where both your retreat paths are blocked, but if their is an open retreat path, you MUST take it.
      
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