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Cantatta
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Arnhem Victory

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Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 09 April 2007 17:48
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/tideofiron.html

For those interested, here is a new competitor to Memoir 44 from Fantasy Flight Games, called Tide of Iron. There are many things familiar here, but also some innovations. The scope of ToI appears to be somewhat larger than M44, and it comes with several different map boards that can be arranged in various ways, a la Avalon Hill wargames of old (think Panzer Blitz or Arab Israeli Wars and the geomorphic maps they used).

There are lots of goodies in the box, and I like a wargame with a good toybox component, which is where 75% of the fun is in minature gaming, IMHO.
      
Talespinner
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 10 April 2007 00:38
I saw ToI demoed at a convention and on the tabletop, it looked like M44 with a bunch of extra rules to add "realism." The game played well, albeit differently from M44. It definitely comes with lots of goodies in the box, including some things that I looked at and immediately thought, "Those would be cool in M44."

The big issue I had with the game is setup time. It took about an hour for the guy showing the game to set everything up and get it ready to play. In an hour I usually have M44 setup and am pretty close to being done with the first battle. Unlike M44 the "downtime" between scenarios is pretty long. Granted this has a lot to do with the extra bits, but I would rather being playing than setting up.
      
Cantatta
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 10 April 2007 17:20
I don't see enough here to make me want to immediately go out and drop $80 on a copy of the base game, to be sure. I did hear that the game has been delayed so that the map boards could be mounted on better stock, perhaps something more akin to wood than paper, as odd as that may sound.

At any rate, I'm more than happy with M44 and all it's great toys... but ToI does look interesting, just the same. I'm just not sure I need two games that similar in my stash. perhaps I will wait for some additional reviews before making my final decision.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 10 April 2007 17:47
I am sure that based ont eh quality of FFG's work, that the game is a fine production and stands on its own two feet. But my sentiments boiled down to what you are saying: Do I really need two similar games in the same genre? I have more than enough life left in M44 and love that game to death. My girlfriend also likes M44 a lot but has expressed disinterest in any more wwii games. Same reasson I have so far passed on Combat Commander.

M44 is elegant, simple to set-up, easy to learn, quick to play. The expansions offer more than enough variety for me and there are hundreds of SFTF waiting to be played also. I am sticking with M44 for a long time.
      
Sniper
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 10 April 2007 18:13
ToI does look interetsing, but I am going to pass as well. After reading the rules it looks like a combination of M'44 and A&A Mini's. I have M'44 and all of it's expansions, plus I have A&A Mini's, so no need for the game in my collection.
      
Cato_the_Elder
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 10 April 2007 20:33
To me, it does not seem that TOI and M44 are even competitors. M44 takes 30-45 minutes to play. TOI takes 2-4 hours (or more) to play. Only the smallest of the TOI scenarios can be played in 2 hours. The normal and bigger ones go into the 3-4 hour or more mark. While the genre is the same, the time commitment alone makes them very different games. TOI looks cool, but I am not at a stage where I can commit 2-4 hours for a game. If I was in college with a lot of time, that might be another matter.
      
SlotraceDK
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 10 April 2007 21:33
Interesting!!!
But the tanks looks like a must-buy!!!!

Let's hear from you if you buy the game!

Have a look at eBay..... VERY CHEAP!!!!

[Updated on: Tue, 10 April 2007 22:54]

      
red_zebra
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Thu, 12 April 2007 22:38
IF they had kept the same scale as Memoir44, I would have bought ToI, just to get more variation in plastic, and maybe I would have played the game too. Rolling Eyes

Just take a look here

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/195008
      
SlotraceDK
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Fri, 13 April 2007 08:28
At least ToI tanks look like tanks!!!
I'm not all happy about the look and shape of the Memoir '44 tanks!!!

[Updated on: Fri, 13 April 2007 08:28]

      
Sniper
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Fri, 13 April 2007 15:13
I agree that the Sherman looks like it was hit with a hammer, much too flat, but I think the other tanks (Russian, German and Japanese) all look great.
      
50th
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sun, 15 April 2007 05:58
The game looks impressive, but after dropping a lot on M44 and expansions, I'm not sure I'm ready to drop another 80 on another wwii game. Besides, I love M44 and really like the fact that scenario's can be played in an hour or two. That way, I can play more scenarios.

I do think the playing pieces are eye candy though!
      
tank commander
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 16 April 2007 21:46
red_zebra wrote on Thu, 12 April 2007 16:38

IF they had kept the same scale as Memoir44, I would have bought ToI, just to get more variation in plastic, and maybe I would have played the game too. Rolling Eyes

Just take a look here

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/195008



Are they bigger or smaller than the Mem 44 minis?
      
SlotraceDK
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 17 April 2007 10:04
[img]http://files.boardgamegeek.com/bggimages/pic195008_md.jpg[/img]
Sherman Comparision: M '44, ToI, WTM, A&A Mini (left to right, on M '44 board)

[Updated on: Tue, 17 April 2007 10:05]

      
Sixter
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 17 April 2007 16:29
I think they screwed the Memoir44 Sherman model up big-time, it looks nothing like the real thing.
It's a shame because the pzkw4 and T-34 look pretty nice.
      
SlotraceDK
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Thu, 19 April 2007 12:21
Why didn't my picture show?
[img]http://files.boardgamegeek.com/bggimages/pic195008_md.jpg[/img]
      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Thu, 21 June 2007 03:52
im so glad i did not wast my time with m44! when it first hit shops i was tempted but i desided to wait for the british exp now how many years have been waiting for that unlicke the morons who think a carry case is more important than the tommys this is some what important to me and insulting that days of wonder think its okay.
fantsy flight promise ther first exp will be british
tide of iorn has just hit the shops in the u.k. and it looks so much better than m44
i pick my nose and flick it at genral direction of m44 i mean the name sez it all i mean genrally ww2 is sed to have startd in 1939 when the BRITISH declaerd war on nazi germany for invading poland

[Updated on: Sat, 30 June 2007 21:38]

      
Randwulf
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Thu, 21 June 2007 04:45
Well roob... if you feel that way... bye... don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on your way out... hope you have fun with your new game.
      
GreatDane
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Thu, 21 June 2007 10:45
Roobarb wrote on Thu, 21 June 2007 03:52

im so glad i did not wast my time with m44!

It seems to me that you are wasting your time with M44!


Quote:

when it first hit shops i was tempted but i desided to wait for the british exp now how many years have been waiting for that unlicke the morons who think a carry case is more important than the tommys this is some what important to me and insulting that days of wonder think its okay.


For all I know you can be waiting forever. There has never been any plans to publish a 'British Expansion'.

The only expansion that hasn't been released yet is the Carrying Case, and that was first announced a year ago.

      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Fri, 22 June 2007 02:59
truth hurts eh randwulf Very Happy Laughing was that the door or your boot i have some ideas d.o.w how about a spanish civel war game with out the sapnish or a warterloo game with out the prsussians or a western game with out native americans or how about a star trek game with out klingons Laughing Laughing Laughing
how dumb is that
      
JMcL63
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Fri, 22 June 2007 10:06
Roobarb? Like I said before: the British are in M44. It's just that they share the US models. It's true that they could do with having some special British rules, but then so could the Germans and the U.S. Army. I've made a set of these, which can be downloaded here.

As for a British expansion? I've said it before and I'll say it again: if DoW decide to do a British expansion and all it is is new models and scenarios, it'll be a wasted opportunity. A new British expansion would need decent British nationality rules, as well as rules for the famous 'funnies', the special purpose tanks developed for the invasion of Europe. There is no way DoW can commit to a project of this scope soon enough to confirm it for you personally right now.

So give M44 a go (surely you can find someone who's already got a copy?). If you like Battlelore I'm sure you won't be disappointed. And please do stop all this nonsense about the British not being in M44. Most of what you're saying is simply wrong, and it's making you look silly. Wink

[Updated on: Fri, 22 June 2007 10:08]

      
GeneT
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Fri, 22 June 2007 16:43
Seem like as good a time as any to make a first post!

M44 is indeed an excellent game as is TOI. I do have both and they're different enough to warrant the two purchases. (my opinion of course) M44 is a great game when game time is limited (which is quite often now days) and you wish to get in a few "quickies" from each side of the board. A nice light game that you can enjoy while conversing with your opponent, especially when game nights are fewer in between!

TOI on the other hand is a bit more tense in it's play. Units are more specialized and gameplay less controlled by the cards in your hand. Although cards in TOI can come into play majorly!
It is much more demanding on time but we have on occasion played both games at once! This isn't a review so I'll stop here.

I can't see how the lack of Brits should hinder a decision to buy M44 at all! The pieces are either Axis or Allied. If they do introduce the British as separate distinct pieces then I agree, some new rules should be made. I trust this series will expand!

Ultimately I'm certain M44 will get the bulk of the play on game nights just from the stand point of time. But each game is really quite unique and fun!

Oh yeah, I purchased mine online for $60 bucks shipping inc.

[Updated on: Fri, 22 June 2007 17:13]

      
dagorman
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Fri, 22 June 2007 18:00
As someone who owns M44 and all the expansions I find it to be one of the most enjoyable wargames I've played, adding to this I've created my own scenarios and added more armies using 1/72 scale infantry and 6mm guns and tanks the infantry cost about ¤6 for 50 the tanks and guns between 40 and 80p sterling from http://spiritgames.co.uk/figs/hrcont.php.

Today I purchased Tide of Iron which has a slighty more complicated/expaned rule system some very nice models which i will paint and use with M44 (trucks,half tracks and tiger tanks) and vise versa.
Tide of iron is a very well put together game with high production qualities but thats not as important as the system as models can be exchanged for others without too much effort.

From what I've seen so far Tide of Iron is also a good wargaming system my main problem so far is the lack of scenarios 6 in the book but there are 4 more on the website plus user made ones and as soon as i get to fuly understand the system i can creat my own. Hopefuly Tide of Iron will provided as much fun as M44 has and still dose.

To sum up I think Tide of Iron is a vauled addition to mine and any historical wargame collection some rules which I really like and convinced me to purchase it are the 2 division to each side allowing team play on the standard scenarios unlike overlord no cc to direct but two generals of equal rank this should add to the realism as command friction often stopped a brake through from being expoit or turned victory into defeat

[Updated on: Fri, 22 June 2007 18:37]

      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Fri, 22 June 2007 21:23
And please do stop all this nonsense about the British not being in M44. Most of what you're saying is simply wrong, and it's making you look silly. Wink[/quote]
but but i am silly i nameed my self after a vegtable or is it fruit?
and i under stand but being reppreseted by sinerios is not good enuff for me part of the reason im so pashonit about it is when i was a kid i fell in love with toy soldgers and even at that tender age i would never dream of reperesnting one nationality with another.
alas i dont have any mates who own m44 in my group i buy the games i learn the rules and teach them to the group cos there to lazy to learn them for them selfs.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Fri, 22 June 2007 22:57


As for a British expansion? I've said it before and I'll say it again: if DoW decide to do a British expansion and all it is is new models and scenarios, it'll be a wasted opportunity. A new British expansion would need decent British nationality rules, as well as rules for the famous 'funnies', the special purpose tanks developed for the invasion of Europe. There is no way DoW can commit to a project of this scope soon enough to confirm it for you personally right now.
okay ere we go agin of corse you need special rule for the brits and the americans and the germans but how hard can it be you make it sound like there caveing each figuer individuly "okay we finished that tank only a billion to go...gee my hands are geting tiered" or maybe there hand wrighting each rule sheet ?
have they not hered of injection moulding or the priting press?
maybe they are collecting old plastic bottle tops so they dont av to buy the palstic game testing will take some time i grant you but how long has been? the basic set has americans and germans theres a russian exp thers a japnese exp hmmm there seems to be some thing missing is it the belgiums the czechs the finns the poles i could go on, its the britsh till you have the brits you dont have a complet game they where involed you know if youer (DOW) selling me a WW2 game i whant the brits it may seem silly to you but while were at it wot about the french or the italians
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 01:03
No one disagress with you Roobarb that the British are needed. I want the plastic, I want the rules, I want it all. The backlash you received for your post is due to the fact you think because of the missing expansion, the rest of the system is not worth buying.

While the rest of us may be annoyed that the Brits aren't here yet, and no word of anything official if DOW even plans to make them, we still love and support the game.

You make it sound like all DOW is doing is sitting around twiddling their thumbs and have nothing better to do than try to decipher your posts. They are a pretty active company and have more titles than just Memoir 44. We as fans are just trying to get them to move this particular expansion up on the priority list.

So basically telling DOW to shove off in one thread and then begging them to give you special insider info in another is ridiculous and has probably rubbed the loyal fans around here the wrong way. At least, that's the way I took it and probably a few others as well.

for the most part we want what you want. We just appreciate what we do have in the meantime.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 02:35
okay first coltsfan76 regarding the other thred never in a million years was i egspecting the DOW crew to give insder info to me i may be arogant but im not that arogant and regarding the so called back lash as far as im conserned bring it on "IF CANT TAKE IT DONT DISH IT OUT" im shoure mr Borg and the DOW crew can take what im saying in the spirit it is ment my avatar is the imp it is not with out good reason that i chose that avatar if you whant to understand me better watch the films nil by mouth think of these pepol as the avraege joe-blows and then take trainspoting with out the herowin as the life i have lived up to this point i spent the whole of the 80s watching my pepol haveing the c#@p kicked out of them by the system i spent the 90s dishing it out BACK TO TOPIC if didnt care i would be going on about it if i thout the BL/M44 engine was rubish i woldent bother wrighting on this forum would i? and just for the record i havent bout TOI yet im waiting for the british exp
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 04:59
Roobarb wrote on Fri, 22 June 2007 19:35

if didnt care i would be going on about it if i thout the BL/M44 engine was rubish i woldent bother wrighting on this forum would i?


Roobarb wrote on Wed, 20 June 2007 20:52

im so glad i did not wast my time with m44!


hmmm...

anyone else confused?

[Updated on: Sat, 23 June 2007 04:59]

      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 05:49
ColtsFan76 wrote on Fri, 22 June 2007 22:59

Roobarb wrote on Fri, 22 June 2007 19:35

if didnt care i would be going on about it if i thout the BL/M44 engine was rubish i woldent bother wrighting on this forum would i?


Roobarb wrote on Wed, 20 June 2007 20:52

im so glad i did not wast my time with m44!


hmmm...

anyone else confused?


when i sed "im glad i did not wast my time on m44" i ment im glad i havent spent any money on the game that is M44 when i can spend my money on TOI the fantasy flight game witch is similar to m44 the DOW game when i sed "if dint care i would(nt) be going on about it if i thout the BL/M44 engine was rubish i woldent bother wrighting on this forum would i?" i ment that i licke the rules of B/L which i under stand is similar to M44 is it not ? if the M44 rules are not simular to BL rules then i stand by my original statement

im so glad i did not wast my time with m44! when it first hit shops i was tempted but i desided to wait for the british exp now how many years have been waiting for that unlicke the morons who think a carry case is more important than the tommys this is some what important to me and insulting that days of wonder think its okay.
fantsy flight promise ther first exp will be british
tide of iorn has just hit the shops in the u.k. and it looks so much better than m44
i pick my nose and flick it at genral direction of m44 i mean the name sez it all i mean genrally ww2 is sed to have startd in 1939 when the BRITISH declaerd war on nazi germany for invading poland
dose that help your confueshon
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 07:14
no, but frankly, i don't really care. Fantasy Flight has forums. You shoud go there and spend some time with other TOI players.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 07:47
fair enuff no offnece ment

[Updated on: Sat, 23 June 2007 08:44]

      
MajorOracle
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 10:15
Can Roobarb be kicked from the board, please?

I think he mistook the Memoir '44 Forum for the "11 Year Old Who Can't Spell Forum" Laughing !

[Updated on: Sat, 23 June 2007 10:25]

      
Randwulf
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 11:09
And here I thought he said, he was going away already...

but nnnooooo.... He's just trying to get a rise out of people.

I say we just ignore him. Hurts my eyes to try and read his posts anyway...

      
Sniper
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 16:42
I say no to kicking Roobarb out, yes he can be a bit over the top at times; however I think he is pretty harmless and you always can set your personal settings to igrnore all posts by him if he annoys you that much.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 17:24
I don't think anyone is going to get kicked off. it is just a shame that there have been so many new users lately that have been just outright rude - regardless of their background and upbringing. It's no excuse for your behavior on these boards.

Sniper's advice is best - just select "ignore user" and forget about them. A pity that for all the time I have been here, I never had to use the feature until just recently.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 18:13
i was just about to VERY rude about majororacle but as 2 pepole who i respect have come to my defense i will refame wich is a shame cos i had a real doosey for him agen i aplogise to coltsfan76 if i am runeing his site and will try to follow his egsample in from now on if majororacle wants to get personl im be happy to tear him a new one on the PM.

[Updated on: Sat, 23 June 2007 18:14]

      
GeneT
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 18:32
Interesting...you think the game engine is "rubbish", but you're waiting for the Brit expansion before you buy...
Will the Brit expansion suddenly make M44 the end all be all
game of the century?! And I'm not sure when the Brits declared
war on Germany would impact a game or its title!

Again, to get the thread back on course, in my opinion both games differ enough that I thought each deserved spot on my shelf/table and I still stand by that! Both are very very fun!
      
Brummbar
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 18:44
I find ToI to be more like A&A:M than Memoir.

There really is no comparison between ToI and Memoir other than they are both set during WWII

- M'44 has historical battle level settings, ToI is a small scale action that will, like A&A:M get tired after awhile

Both have figs

- FYI, the ToI figs are far inferior to the accurate M'44 figs...there can certainly be no question of which is more quality here!

Both roll dice

- Tiny 6 siders with ToI where you have to determine if it is a 4, 5 or 6 is a hit...or was it 5, 6?)

I think either A&A:M or ToI would scratch the smaller unit level skirmishes itch. I don't think ToI is very original though.

It certainly won't replace Memoir '44 at our gaming table!
      
Brummbar
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 18:46
...Oh, and to Roobarb - Shine on you crazy diamond!
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 18:51
Roobarb - It's great you want to state your opinion, just try to do it in a more civil manner. You haven't offended me and I while you may be toeing the line, you haven't stepped over it in my opinion. So I haven't placed you on ignore ... yet Smile

I am engangin you because I think what you have stated is contradictory to other statements. As GeneT stated,a British expansion is not going to save this game for you if you can't stand M44. It will be interesting to see which company comes out with their British expansion first. FFG announced first but has a track record of long delays - especially in this game. DOW hasn't announced but is surely working on it. Once they do announce, you can be certain it will be out when they say it will. I think you are only denying yourself fun if you pass by both games until one gets the expansion. M44 is definitely a fun game as is and has plenty of expansions already to enhance it even more. I am sure TOI is a blast as is as well.

As for me, to get back on topic, I think I will pass TOI by. M44 fits more of my requirements - including being a much faster game. I already have enough "epic" type games gathering dust because I don't have the time or the players to commit to it. My girlfriend enjoys what wargames we have but asking her to learn another would probably turn her off of all of them. Better to stick with C&C in that case.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 19:26
GeneT wrote on Sat, 23 June 2007 12:32

Interesting...you think the game engine is "rubbish", but you're waiting for the Brit expansion before you buy...
Will the Brit expansion suddenly make M44 the end all be all
game of the century?! And I'm not sure when the Brits declared
war on Germany would impact a game or its title!



no no thast not what i sed ..i sed that i like the BL engine and asuming M44 runs on the same engine if it dose that makes M44 a dame good game with or with out the britsh exp. for me a britsh exp in a WW2 game is of the up most impotance to me personaly, it seems to me that the FF crew looked M44 and tryed to fill in the gaps in M44 i think the fact that ff are saying that a britsh exp will be there fist exp sez alot
      
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