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schnupferl
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 12:15
Knock - Chiroubles schrieb am Tue, 04 November 2014 08:14

@ schnupferl : you take screenshots after every move of the games you watch ? ?
Can you show the one at the end ? (with fedyna's tickets)




Obviously not, this time was an exception, because I wanted to hold on to this moment when Schaffnerlos would possibly throw the game with the golden combo (evil me Twisted Evil ). The only reason I took screenshots is because 5 blacks aroused my attention. At this time I couldn't have known fedyna wasn't holding eastern tickets but nevertheless I wanted to ask Schaffnerlos afterwards why he played the way he was playing. (Ironically after seeing fedyna's tickets getting to know his way of playing seems even more interesting to me now) Therefore it's easier to have screenshots as a reminder .. also because Schaffnerlos may have forgotten what he or his opponent was actually laying down. (I'm speaking from my own experience Wink)

I didn't take them after every move though, and unfortunately none in the end.

https://imageshack.com/i/kn9E3yslphttps://imageshack.com/i/p89PTI9Lp

But I remember fedyna was laying 2 locs from NY-Washington, 5 white to Phoenix and 1 single anywhere. With +11 and -4 you'll get the result of 91.

A little side note .. No doubt here that Schaffnerlos should've never ever played Pit-Ral with his remaining 2 reds. Rolling Eyes
      
dea1
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 12:23
Taking screenshots and/or videos from tournament matches is pretty common.

If you like to analyze games afterwards with your teammates that's quite helpful.

As a side effect such documentation has helped in the past to figure out some players we don't trust (or whose behaviour we find not acceptable) and therefore don't want to have in our tournaments.
      
BTB benny
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 12:51
AAA_Angel6 schrieb am Tue, 04 November 2014 09:11

@5 blacks: why not say that this is cheating. Obviously, it is Smile

@Kotjara ZL: 2nd guy on my ignore list Smile

@Morientes ZL: you need to do something about those two players in your team. This is not funny Sad


You are saying that fedyna is a cheater, because of one single turn? That looks pretty exaggerated for me.
I cannot say anything about this player, but I think you should be very careful with your accusations.
If you would exclude every player from tournaments that made ONE wrong turn, there would not be any players left.
Stop your paranoia and try to get more information about his style and games first!

Just to have another view among all these accusations and convictions:

The second and third game did not look like cheating games. In game 3 it would have been very easy to block LR in case he would know the tix of his opponent.
I want to say that many of the 1400+/1500+ players have a totally different playstyle, which you maybe do not understand if you play just 1600+ games and it can be really surprising.

Why didnt he try to block Vancouver and Seattle if he knew the tix of Schaffnerlos? Would be much easier and fit to his tix.

Maybe he tried to find a way to the east to draw and find a big ticket. As you could see in his other games, he is a friend of drawing many tickets.


      
Knockando
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 13:40
TIC benny écrit le Tue, 04 November 2014 12:51

AAA_Angel6 schrieb am Tue, 04 November 2014 09:11

@5 blacks: why not say that this is cheating. Obviously, it is Smile

@Kotjara ZL: 2nd guy on my ignore list Smile

@Morientes ZL: you need to do something about those two players in your team. This is not funny Sad


You are saying that fedyna is a cheater, because of one single turn? That looks pretty exaggerated for me.
I cannot say anything about this player, but I think you should be very careful with your accusations.
If you would exclude every player from tournaments that made ONE wrong turn, there would not be any players left.
Stop your paranoia and try to get more information about his style and games first!

Just to have another view among all these accusations and convictions:

The second and third game did not look like cheating games. In game 3 it would have been very easy to block LR in case he would know the tix of his opponent.
I want to say that many of the 1400+/1500+ players have a totally different playstyle, which you maybe do not understand if you play just 1600+ games and it can be really surprising.

Why didnt he try to block Vancouver and Seattle if he knew the tix of Schaffnerlos? Would be much easier and fit to his tix.

Maybe he tried to find a way to the east to draw and find a big ticket. As you could see in his other games, he is a friend of drawing many tickets.





You are right about different ways of playing, I see it when playing lower ranked players ! But in this case it seems kotjara didn't connect anything to draw.
But main question is : why kotjara don't try to explain and only laugh here ?
      
Knockando
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 13:49
@ schnupferl and dea1 : I have no problem with taking lot of screenshots ! ! Smile

Kotjara playing is (at least) strange in this game.

But Schnafferlos made a lot of mistakes in this game I think and could have won even with that start. (but true, it is not important here, what is important is to understand the way of playing/thinking of kotjara inthis game)
      
BTB benny
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 14:02
Knock - Chiroubles schrieb am Tue, 04 November 2014 13:49

@ schnupferl and dea1 : I have no problem with taking lot of screenshots ! ! Smile

Kotjara playing is (at least) strange in this game.

But Schnafferlos made a lot of mistakes in this game I think and could have won even with that start. (but true, it is not important here, what is important is to understand the way of playing/thinking of kotjara inthis game)


Arent we talking about fedyna?
      
Knockando
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 14:38
TIC benny écrit le Tue, 04 November 2014 14:02

Knock - Chiroubles schrieb am Tue, 04 November 2014 13:49

@ schnupferl and dea1 : I have no problem with taking lot of screenshots ! ! Smile

Kotjara playing is (at least) strange in this game.

But Schnafferlos made a lot of mistakes in this game I think and could have won even with that start. (but true, it is not important here, what is important is to understand the way of playing/thinking of kotjara inthis game)


Arent we talking about fedyna?


Sorry, Kotjara answered in this thread and I made the mistake Confused , but of course we are talking about fedyna.

But answers from kotjara are...strange too...
      
Kotjara Zl
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 14:39
, i am very angry ,if somebody comments on his loss too much( it was a emotions.... but.

[Updated on: Tue, 04 November 2014 14:50]

      
Knockando
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 14:45
Kotjara ZL écrit le Mon, 03 November 2014 23:16

bla bla bla schafnerlos!!!(



Was thinking you played because of your answers...
      
Kotjara Zl
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 14:47
on my own , i can tell , that fedyna plays " not -standart. we need time with my capitain, to UNDERSTAND this situation....
      
Kotjara Zl
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 14:50
emotions...
      
SMP Ishamael
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 15:53
Quote:

Maybe he tried to find a way to the east to draw and find a big ticket. As you could see in his other games, he is a friend of drawing many tickets.


I agree with Benny. With the screenshots (thanks, very helpful), I actually don't see much suspicion for cheating on a single case. If one thinks there are not many chances to win against start with 2 small west tickets (I would disagree), then it makes sense to try to connect to the east and draw tickets (Sysy, isn't that your favourite tactic? Razz ). Starting with 5 black would not be my choice, but has some advantages as we can see here. SSM-Tor might seem odd, but Fedyna possibly thought that purple was safe (schaffnerlos only had 2 purple). Also if he really was cheating why not Mon-Tor instead? And after 3 red with locs, it is pretty clear that something is going not as planned for schaffnerlos and blocking a biggie makes sense.

Of course if there are more games like this with no counterexamples then it becomes suspicious, but I wouldn't read much into it now.
      
schnupferl
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 16:49
SOJA Ishamael schrieb am Tue, 04 November 2014 15:53

SSM-Tor might seem odd, but Fedyna possibly thought that purple was safe (schaffnerlos only had 2 purple).



I'm afraid this argument doesn't seem very viable to me since fedyna hasn't played any other purple as the game went on (the 2 from ssm-to were red as you can tell from the screenshot and no purple was laying open)

SOJA Ishamael schrieb am Tue, 04 November 2014 15:53

Also if he really was cheating why not Mon-Tor instead?


From a neutral psychological point of view, would you really play like that when cheating? I mean would you really go ahead and write "Hey I'm a cheater" on your forehead so everyone can see it? I harshly doubt that.
However I agree on the fact that after putting 3 locs (good observation here Wink) on Dul-Chi clearly something must've gone wrong for Schaffnerlos but his mistakes are probably written in another chapter.

TIC benny schrieb am Tue, 04 November 2014 12:51

The second and third game did not look like cheating games.


Would you continue cheating when you already aroused suspicion especially as more and more observers saw you playing?

Again these remarks shall not be broken down to this specific case nor lead to any accusations but to general information referring to which behaviour patterns could possibly be developing in cheater's minds. They might not be as naive as one may think.
      
Truckerteller
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 17:02
After 9 pages, this thread actually has something constructive to offer.

I'm not sure, I agree with Benny and Ishamael that we can't know what crazy ideas go on in the minds of a 1500 player (sorry, no offense). I also understand the point of view of Kotjara, if your teammate wins and people go crazy and you don't see a problem and your English isn't very good, why not laugh about them all in poorly constructed sentences.

It's 50-50 for me. I can also see why fedyna would be pretty bad at cheating, most screenshots still give me the impression it was winning for Schaffnerlos. The non played 6 pink certainly are significant in my view, so are 3 red with locos. I mostly buy the argument that if you know your opponent has 22 and 20 and you have 2 tix west, why not take 6 yellow, 6 grey, the 4s to Cal, maybe 6 white (maybe not, Schaffnerlos had a lot), maybe even the 3 to Van.

So, if fedyna is cheating, pls Morientes have some good talks and figure out what's happening here.

If fedyna is not cheating, pls understand that people have a lot of doubts that 5 black, 2 to Tor and 2 NY Pit, 3 blue are very very odd.
      
Sysyphus
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 18:03
The best indeed is to have patterns of play. I could not watch any fedyna's matches so I won't have a firm opinion on the topic.

5 black with port phoe den paso when your opponent has not laid any track on the board, is like starting with 4 white Sebastopol-Bucuresti or 4 Erzurm-Sebastopol with Cad Stock in Hand while your opponent has Kobenhavn Erzurum...

About bad cheating tactics ? If a player plays like a 1500-ish player, he would also cheat like a 1500-ish player. You can not expect a 1500+ player to block like a top 30.

Benny talks about paranoia, I'd rather talk of awareness.
To explain all your losses because you think your opponent cheats, that's paranoia. With the quantity of games played online everyday, to discuss 1 game out 100/200/5.000 is not paranoia.
If after 10,000 games online, you see something totally uncommon that can be out-of-line, it seems legit to question the moves.

[Updated on: Tue, 04 November 2014 18:07]

      
Mr Bean
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 18:54
Just trying to make sure of something here: so far it seems people are guessing which 2 tix fedyna had .....
As long as we are not sure, could it be he had a much more normal opening move for the tickets he had?
Or are 'we' sure that he indeed had port-pho and den-elp?
Makes a BIG difference!
      
dea1
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 20:01
my understanding is that "we" are sure.

Schaffnerlos wrote it in his post (one can assume that he looked at his opp's ticks at the end of the game and remembered them correctly I'd say) - that's what I know

Other People who watched the game saw it - that's what I've heard

And well - if I were Fedyna, had seen this thread or heard about it (one can assume he has) and if I had had other tickets ... I would have posted that in big red letters hours ago
      
Schaffnerlos
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 20:40
Mr Bean schrieb am Tue, 04 November 2014 18:54

Just trying to make sure of something here: so far it seems people are guessing which 2 tix fedyna had .....
As long as we are not sure, could it be he had a much more normal opening move for the tickets he had?
Or are 'we' sure that he indeed had port-pho and den-elp?
Makes a BIG difference!

We are sure ... and all the others can calculate it if they don't believe it.
https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/588x495q90/912/ubkvyD.png
      
BTB benny
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Re:WARNING Tue, 04 November 2014 20:49
Sysyphus - Pommard schrieb am Tue, 04 November 2014 18:03


Benny talks about paranoia, I'd rather talk of awareness.
To explain all your losses because you think your opponent cheats, that's paranoia. With the quantity of games played online everyday, to discuss 1 game out 100/200/5.000 is not paranoia.
If after 10,000 games online, you see something totally uncommon that can be out-of-line, it seems legit to question the moves.




Awareness is a good thing, but I know that discussions like this can turn easily into the wrong direction and create paranoia about fedyna or maybe more.
We should not forget that it was only one game with maybe one strange turn.
Maybe he is not able to speak english and does not understand whta is going on here. I remember that he was not speaking much in the lobby yesterday.
The best thing to do is to contact Morientes to talk with fedyna. And the community should not condemn him before anything is proven.
I know what I am speaking about, because exactly the same thing happened to me.
      
AWT Morientes ZL
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 08:22
Hi all!
Cannonade watched fedynas games and we together analyzed it.
I had to play in captains tournament, but I coudnt play that day and time. So, I offered other players of our team to play. Nobody except Fedyna could play that time.
I got to know Fedyna in chat TTR last year, when I was looking for players for our team for the first our NC. Fedyna didnt know about forum and chat TTR, about open/closed games, about password in game etc.
I am sure that he now does not used forum, password in game etc, and he will not be able to answer you in forum.
He and his wife play this game for a long time for fun, with players of score not higher than 1500-1550.
Last year we conducted training before NC and we were surprised with his tactics. He made first 3-4 moves not with 6cards ( he would play well on FUN TOURNAMENT no5 no6 LOL))). So he had no idea about tactics of top-players (+1600). And we explained him for a long time that he should change tactics, if he wanted to win. And he started changing his tactics, but a lot of old elements of his tactics are still there.
In NC 2013 he didnt have a single win. But he had sensation result (3-3) with TUS Black-is-Black.
After he played in league D2. He lost several games and couldnt play to the and (we dont know the reason why).
NC 2014
First game. Victory over tiploup (2-4). I didnt watch this game. Fedyna wrote in the skype forum that rival had try to block hem unsuccesfuly.
Next game. Fedyna - CAT-juanfpdm (3-3). I watched 2 or 3 games and I didnt see un fair game. ( I have only 3 screenshots).
http://www.imageshack.com/i/pbXSDGtGj
http://www.imageshack.com/i/f02iaZMej
Next game. CIA scorps vs fedyna (2.5 - 3.5). I watched all game. Ross didnt play well (I hope he will confirm that)I have Only one screenshot from this game . And Ross tried to block in last game, but that was unsuccesful.
Next game. fedyna vs ITY tempest0 : 3.5 - 2.5 . I didnt watch. Score ITY tempest0 is rather low and I suspect that game was fair.
About QT. Fedyna came in wrong time because he didnt know his rival. He wrote in skype chat but we were not there at that time. And he couldnt understand what he had to do.
About game with OmG schnupferl. Our team asked him why he started with 5 black. He said that his mind it was the best way to block possible long route, because he had wrong tix. That is his logics. To his mind: routes Portl - Phoenix and Denver - el paso, are worse than LA - NY and ATL - San Fr.
I suggested you to watch his future games where you will be able to see his tactics. He never had score higher than +1570. If he played unfair he would be able score higher +1600.
If you watched his next game with Elric and Sivorro you would be able to see his logics.
In game with Elric fedyna started with 3 blue (monreal - ny), after 5 black (mon - ssm). These were the strange moves as per your logics.
In game with Sivorro his moves were the following:
la -sf, sf - phoen, phoen - santa, santa - okla, okla - little, little - nash, nash - atl, atl-pit, pit - ny. These were the strange moves as per your logics. After he draw tix, but on result he didnt have any long route.
About Kotjara. He is my friend from childhood and we started to play TTR togyeter. He is very emotional and impulsive player (To my mind there are several such players now). He doesnt know english well, and he cannot explain correctly what he thinks. And sometimes there are misunderstandings.
And Kotjara doesnt have other gadget except IPAD))
You can try to play with players +1450/1550 and you will be surprised with their logics and tactics.

I dont want to defend or justify my team members - this is a my personal opinion.

Regards

[Updated on: Wed, 05 November 2014 08:39]

      
AWT Morientes ZL
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 08:23
http://www.imageshack.com/i/pc1xUvlIj
http://www.imageshack.com/i/hlaw3vU4p
From yesterday Fedyna travelling and i will know his position only after 9 Nov.

[Updated on: Wed, 05 November 2014 08:38]

      
Schaffnerlos
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 09:36
HFP Morientes ZL schrieb am Wed, 05 November 2014 08:22

...
Fedyna didnt know about forum and chat TTR, about open/closed games, about password in game etc.
...
About QT. Fedyna came in wrong time because he didnt know his rival. He wrote in skype chat but we were not there at that time. And he couldnt understand what he had to do.
...
About game with OmG schnupferl. Our team asked him why he started with 5 black. He said that his mind it was the best way to block possible long route, because he had wrong tix. That is his logics. To his mind: routes Portl - Phoenix and Denver - el paso, are worse than LA - NY and ATL - San Fr.
...
I dont want to defend or justify my team members - this is a my personal opinion.

Regards

First of all thank you very much Morientes to reflect the behaviour and the tactics of your team member. This is definitly not the stuff a captain needs to be happy at all. Good job!

But to be honest - i am not convinced.

Regarding the fist 2 points in the quotation: Fedyna played far more than 9000 matches in the last 4 years (i played less than 1500 in 9 years) ... hard to imagine that he is completely unexperienced in all the things you mentioned (showing up right time, joining a game, using a pw, etc.). Obviously he is able to schedule and play NC clashes without any problems ...
And btw: Lots of people tried to tell him in the lobby what he should do (especially Elric did this several times).

About the game in QT vs me (not schnupferl): Supposing that he thought that way (maybe!) ... But then it would have made much more sense to play 6 blacks to block possible long routes in the south (or LA-NY) and - as a sideline - to do something for his (btw imho not that bad) tics ...

Regarding his next games in QT: Against Elric he held the 42 in his hand - why should he play nonsense?
I didn't watch the game vs Sivorro, so i can't say anything about it. But I agree with the point schnupferl already mentioned: "Would you continue cheating when you already aroused suspicion especially as more and more observers saw you playing?"
      
RUS Sivorro
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 10:36
Hi all!

If fedyna wanted to cheat me he had several chances. But no one did.
I played bad this game. But he played worst. In my game there was no cheating. I promise.

I agree that 5 blacks is very strange move. My coach Pello teached me 6 yellow - 3 van-cal and 4 sea-cal to kill north biggy. But fedyna may had another coach)

Guys! Let's go forward. One strange game in fun QT I suppose it's not cheating in WC Finale. He played fair during all NC. He guess biggy and block it.

In NC match Stason-Spugna Peter made several extremely strict blocks. But no one tell about cheating. He can guess it and did!

Why fedyna can't guess?!

      
Stason
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 13:14
Unfortunately, winning at all costs is a part of some individuals nature. Won't say nothing about fedynas (cheated or not), but I'm 100% sure there are several players who cheated during this and past big tournaments. Some make it very skillfull, some not, making it pretty obvious. But It does not matter, because noone can prove his opponent has cheated. Only the cheater himself can confess to a crime, as Deveric, for example did. I think that to seek, then judge, then ban this players is totally wrong way of solving this problem. The only right thing we could do is to make cheating impossible in tournaments. At the moment games without observing is the only way to do so. As for observers...I personnaly don't like watching others playing much, but lots of people do. So we could record videos of games(at least big matches [quarters, semi, finals]) and then provide everyone with the possibility of watching the matches.

We should change the rules, because the existing rules don't work at the moment. Some people create not open(for observers) games and thats ok, nobody check this.

Otherwise, I'm afraid, this pathetic topic will continue forever...

p.s. Would be interesting to see what you guys think on this. Maybe collectively we could invent a better way to eliminate cheating.

[Updated on: Wed, 05 November 2014 21:28]

      
dea1
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 13:43
Thx Morientes - good job - I trust you to keep an eye on things and to handle them appopriately.

@Stason:
We've had this discussion several times in the past.

Conclusions:
a)
If you play closed games the event is dead.
Who should record the videos? Only the player himself would be able to do that then - would you like to mess around with recording while you have to concentrate on an important match?
Who would enjoy watching them AFTER the event? Yes, some would - but a lot less than those who enjoy to watch live.
We enjoy the live atmosphere, we like to watch our teammembers and friends and cheer for them before they start their next game.
How could I say "well played, xxx, right decision to block NY, that was the only realistic chance, too bad he didn't have it" if I can't watch the game live?
We want to discuss with others after a game we just saw all together - not watch a Video alone some other time.

b)
If you play closed you open the gap for other misbehaviour, eg. insulting opponents, claiming somebody played on vs bot when that isn't true, ...
The control of so many people watching is a good thing here.

c)
Looking at the opp's ticks isn't the only way to cheat. For all others having as many people watch as possible may be the only chance to detect them.


There's one thing however, that we asked DOW to implement in several wishlists over the years - let's hope it happens some time:
Enable the choice which player you want to watch (instead of making it the higher ranked player by default)
+ apply the settings (closed/buddies only/open for everyone to watch) per player.
If we had that, and if you didn't trust me, you could play "closed" from your point of view but I could still let everyone watch me.

If we ever get that feature I would allow to use it.
Otherwise please let's keep it as it is.

This community works on trust.
After a critical period some years ago we managed to build up that trust again (by being strict vs people we didn't trust) and the last years were really good.
There seems to be another critical time at the moment, but I do believe we'll get over it again.

[Updated on: Wed, 05 November 2014 13:43]

      
Stason
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 14:04
Thanks for the detailed answer. Let me ask you two questions.
Do you know that rule 16D is not respected? Some players just can't comply with the rule bacause Ipad opened games are not observable(f.e.)
Do you see a problem with it? I mean the presence of the rule that doesn't work.

16. Nature of the games
D. Observable: Hide cards or "buddies only" option is not allowed, but TD can allow the use of the 'hide cards' option on certain clashes if asked by captains who suspect cheating on the other side. A game started as NOT observable inadvertently does not have to be replayed. The opening player shall be reminded after that game about the rules. Only if he continues deliberately to start closed, the match shall be given as a win to the opposing team.

p.s. How long have we been waiting already for DOW make this changes from wishlists? (I'm just new to the game)

[Updated on: Wed, 05 November 2014 14:07]

      
onyx puffin LOL
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 15:38
The simpler less complex feature that I would hope DoW can put into the game program is to allow those playing to see who is watching the match. (other game sites have this feature)

If players & observers can see the names of the players watching, when one pops in that no one in community knows, one can then try to find out who has such an account.


Otherwise one has to have someone sit out and watch lobby names the whole time to see who is observing, which I have done in past years. That is not much fun, but we have found cheaters/2nd accounts that way.
      
dea1
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 16:08
Yes, I'm aware of the iPad problem.
Yes, I have a problem with it.
This NC we "solved" it by telling the players to have the non-iPad player open all games and restart if the wrong player gets the start.
Luckily we never had the case that 2 iPad players met.
Let's hope the choice will also be implemented on iPad until the next tournament (or that players with iPads also find a possibility to play on PC).

I think the first time I issued that wish is about 4 years ago Sad
      
BTB benny
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 16:26
OmG Schaffnerlos schrieb am Wed, 05 November 2014 09:36


First of all thank you very much Morientes to reflect the behaviour and the tactics of your team member. This is definitly not the stuff a captain needs to be happy at all. Good job!

But to be honest - i am not convinced.

Regarding the fist 2 points in the quotation: Fedyna played far more than 9000 matches in the last 4 years (i played less than 1500 in 9 years) ... hard to imagine that he is completely unexperienced in all the things you mentioned (showing up right time, joining a game, using a pw, etc.). Obviously he is able to schedule and play NC clashes without any problems ...
And btw: Lots of people tried to tell him in the lobby what he should do (especially Elric did this several times).

About the game in QT vs me (not schnupferl): Supposing that he thought that way (maybe!) ... But then it would have made much more sense to play 6 blacks to block possible long routes in the south (or LA-NY) and - as a sideline - to do something for his (btw imho not that bad) tics ...

Regarding his next games in QT: Against Elric he held the 42 in his hand - why should he play nonsense?
I didn't watch the game vs Sivorro, so i can't say anything about it. But I agree with the point schnupferl already mentioned: "Would you continue cheating when you already aroused suspicion especially as more and more observers saw you playing?"



You should not forget that he is a 1500+ player and I think this is the answer to your problems.
He has 1500 points, because he does not care that much about the game as we do, so he is probably not thinking that much about tactics, tournaments, the forum etc.
And you cannnot argue with your playstyle. He is 1500+ because he is not the perfect player and makes some decisions that seem not logical to you.

Morientes explained exactly what I thought before, because I know some players that are playing like this and do not really care about everything that happens in the TTR community.

For me it is a contradiction to want more players in the community and the tournaments and then accuse many of the new players of cheating, because of their playstyle and ONE single turn.
The community should definitely think about this.

      
Schaffnerlos
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 17:19
Quote:

For me it is a contradiction to want more players in the community and the tournaments and then accuse many of the new players of cheating, because of their playstyle and ONE single turn.
The community should definitely think about this.

Thoughts are free Benny ...
You're talking about new players, but Fedyna already played more than 9000 (ninethousand) games ... I'm out!
      
Qorlas
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 17:21
I would only add this: benefit of doubt goes two ways and that trust is gained and is not a given and cannot be requested.

But this is just a saying worth 2 cents Wink

[Updated on: Wed, 05 November 2014 17:33]

      
Sysyphus
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 18:07
TIC benny wrote on Wed, 05 November 2014 16:26



For me it is a contradiction to want more players in the community and the tournaments and then accuse many of the new players of cheating, because of their playstyle and ONE single turn.





1. "Many new players"
It's not as if it was happening every day either. We have a quality discussion in this thread - Schaffnerlos mainly asks for insight-.
Like Qorlas says, because it's easy to hide behind a virtual identity, you have to earn the trust.

Quote:


The community should definitely think about this.


If we don't set any standards of behavior, it's the Far West again. If we do not do any background check, too many players would take advantage of the virtual aspect of the game.
It may be hard to understand to accept from outside, but it is, unfortunately, necessary.


Hidden cards vs open games

It's like watching Poker on TV. If you do not see the players' cards, then you do not watch.
If nobody watches, you turn a community event into a sum-of-individuals event. Not exciting.
I still think that a majority of players would rather play open.
Does the risk of cheating really outweigh the fun of watching games open ?

[Updated on: Wed, 05 November 2014 18:09]

      
Stason
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 19:03
onyx puffin MAD wrote on Wed, 05 November 2014 18:38

The simpler less complex feature that I would hope DoW can put into the game program is to allow those playing to see who is watching the match. (other game sites have this feature)

If players & observers can see the names of the players watching, when one pops in that no one in community knows, one can then try to find out who has such an account.


Otherwise one has to have someone sit out and watch lobby names the whole time to see who is observing, which I have done in past years. That is not much fun, but we have found cheaters/2nd accounts that way.


Ok....you want to hunt for cheaters. Does everyone think the same way that hunting and banning the cheaters is the right direction to go?


I think this would work if TTR was fully formed and closed community. With the rule that cheater receives lifelong ban here. During few years it would probably be possible to eliminate all those individuals. Otherwise this(cheater or not) topic will arise regulary(once in a year two or three, but does this really matter?).

[Updated on: Wed, 05 November 2014 20:28]

      
Qorlas
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 19:21
Quote:

Does everyone think the same way that hunting and banning the cheaters is the right direction to go?




We had a lot of new players in the last year.

Communities however have histories.
And as in every human community... past history is the main cause of behaviours and reactions.
Everyone can read the history of this community going backwards in this forum (Competitive).... it is not always a nice reading.

If we didn't go in hunting and finding cheaters tournaments would have been dead 2/3 years ago.

And: we found clear cut cases in NC... in SPWC and in other places.

I am wondering if a summary of the community history could be useful.

[Updated on: Wed, 05 November 2014 19:22]

      
Stason
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 19:34
Sysyphus - Pommard wrote on Wed, 05 November 2014 21:07


Hidden cards vs open games[/b]
It's like watching Poker on TV. If you do not see the players' cards, then you do not watch.
If nobody watches, you turn a community event into a sum-of-individuals event. Not exciting.
I still think that a majority of players would rather play open.
Does the risk of cheating really outweigh the fun of watching games open ?



I think the risk of cheating is much higher, probably uncomparably higher, during the early stages of tournament(group stage if we speak on NC), lots of matches, low rank players against high-ranked, very few spectators not rarely. Playing with well-known players with lots of specs may be open in play-off ok.

What if we could let players decide if they want play open or not. This rule 16D is not ok and it does not work properly at the moment.
Of course DOW could solve this problem(as dea1 has descriped), but how long have you been waiting you say...4 years? Hopefully this issue won't take another 4 years to be solved.

Is it fun to participate in or watch the tournament where cheating is allowed in fact? Everyone has an own answer.

[Updated on: Wed, 05 November 2014 19:35]

      
BTB benny
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 20:53
OmG Schaffnerlos schrieb am Wed, 05 November 2014 17:19


Thoughts are free Benny ...
You're talking about new players, but Fedyna already played more than 9000 (ninethousand) games ... I'm out!


I speak about him as a new player, because he is not really familiar with the community, the forum and the tournaments...
I thought this would be clear.
      
Sysyphus
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 20:54
We don't allow players to cheat. We allow players to have a full fun experience of online gaming by letting players watch their teammates and the best players play.

I have no problem discussion that topic again.
But by leaving the games open, we trust captains would do their job of checking the background of their own players (it's not meant to Morientes at all, I know how awesome he is as a person).

Again, it is because we are organized as a community that we try to find the best interest of the community.
Hidden cards game are only the best interest of some individuals here.

But if the debate about open or hidden cards game has to happen, I have no problem discussing it.

      
Stason
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 21:58
Very politically correct...haha Laughing Even when everything is obvious we can not call cheater a cheater here. And yet still "We don't allow players to cheat." Yes, we will better hunt for more evidences. The executive has to be politically correct, you are right!

I don't argue that open games are much more interesting for people in the community. There is only one little problem that has not been solved for years. Why don't we pay DOW to hurry and make changes dea1 has been asking for at least 4 years? If everyone would donate something probably they will hear us! Smile

Nevertheless I understant and respect your opinion.

[Updated on: Wed, 05 November 2014 22:17]

      
cannonade
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 22:40
I think that we can identify cheaters. This is technical question. If we have logs from server at the moment of the game, we can see connected (observing) players. After, we can analyze this connection (IP address etc).

So, identification of cheaters will be easy.

[Updated on: Wed, 05 November 2014 22:41]

      
Sysyphus
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Re:WARNING Wed, 05 November 2014 23:54
Stason wrote on Wed, 05 November 2014 21:58

Very politically correct...haha Laughing Even when everything is obvious we can not call cheater a cheater here. And yet still "We don't allow players to cheat." Yes, we will better hunt for more evidences. The executive has to be politically correct, you are right!



Some cases are easier to solve than others. It generally takes several pieces of information from different players to go beyond reasonable doubt. Check in the forum.

I have my own opinion, but I do not throw it in public if you I like there's reasonable doubt. It's easier to have a firm opinion when you are the one involved or if you directly witnessed the actions.
If some other players I know and I trust have reasonable doubt over it, then it is pretty sensible to not go public.
I am glad that at least some players do care about those matters and try to contribute their way.

About DoW's help : we are working on it, we've been working on it unsuccessfully over the past years. We try to establish contact to improve the community, but we had little returns.
It's just up to them to decide if they want to act and work with us. (world championship, forum moderation, tournament mode, cheaters prevention, ipad features... etc).

IPs can be of a legal matter related to privacy. I am not sure how well an IP locator works.

We, alone, try to do our best with the information we have.

[Updated on: Wed, 05 November 2014 23:57]

      
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