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Jac_
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Thu, 06 November 2014 09:39
Here a translation from a "human" and not google translate from the article in the link:


So another Erwin (Broens, apparently a board game player) gives his opinion (title: forgetfulness is human) on the tone of DoW in their press release, based on the following report (summary) from Erwin Pauëlsen:

“After the tournament the final was criticised on the forum of DoW using photographs of the result of the 2nd match in the final. At TTR you can calculate back. On the board one can see exactly how many turns a player used.

After 1.5 weeks DoW contacted me. Through e-mail I heard I was disqualified, since I played more cards than possible. In the attached tournament rules it clearly stated that “if an error can be traced, or (in)advertently rules are not abided [by the winner], DoW has the right to [pick the next one].”

The final is on film, on which one can see that I (inadvertently) took cards from the table which did not belong to me. Despite no one noticed then, it provided DoW with sufficient reasons not to give [me] the price (a holiday). I asked a lawyer, but she stated the pre-defined rules of the organisation would render a case useless. They simply have the right not to give the price.

As you hopefully can understand, this was a hot topic lately for me, friends, family and relatives. Since [the error] is on camera and the organisation wanted to have the trophey back, I agreed. I didn’t want to be reminded at home, and I am very frustrated I don’t get the price. The final took place after 8 games of TTR, after which I was pretty tired. It was a best-of-three. I won the first [match] and the incident occurred during the second match. Even in case I would have lost it, I may have won the 3rd.”

Then the other Erwin continues:

Reading through this, in combination with the press release of DoW and the comments on the forum of the publisher, it gives me a picture of an incompetent tournament organisation which wants to hide their referee incapability by reacting very harsh to a silly mistake. Don’t get me wrong, for such a mistake you should lose that particular game. But it should have been recognised and dealt with at that moment, at which one – possibly after discussing with his opponent – could have appropriately assessed Erwin’s intentions. If at that point they would have interpreted this as a silly mistake [and not more than that], they may even have been able to finish the final.

Based on the requirements mentioned by Erwin the organisation had the right to withdraw the price. But having seen Erwin’s story I start to doubt if the language used in the press release of DoW was morally justifiable.

---------
      
Knockando
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Thu, 06 November 2014 10:34
AGT-Schachus écrit le Wed, 05 November 2014 21:50

Interestingly, in that forum, someone wrote: "From the commentary on the video feed, it appears that a judge stopped him at least one time from taking an extra turn, and yet he ended up with 3 extra turns anyway. That's at least 4 incidents of multiple turn-taking in one game."

My question: Where did he find the/a video feed?Is there anything on tricktrack?


I think it is a sum of what dandee and me wrote in the forum.

There is no video because it was streaming
      
DrakeStorm
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Thu, 06 November 2014 10:47
I would love to see the film.

There were extra cards just laying around and he picked them up? Were they additional cards or were they from a previous turn (i.e. he played 6 yellow and they didn't go into the discard pile and he scooped them back into his hand? Seems like me or the judge might have noticed that.)

And how does that explain the first game where I was shorted turns also? Did cards magically appear on the table again and he took them?

That's what I need, a magic card generator. I wonder if they were locos? I think you need a witch's eye and the hair of Sysyphus for that though.

      
Knockando
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Thu, 06 November 2014 12:05
It is just a pity that you didn't count the cards in you hand at end of game 1... but it's too late now Rolling Eyes

If DoW don't want to answer about what they found, you'll never know how he did that.

I would have very much liked to know how many cards there was in the box at the end of the final.

[Updated on: Thu, 06 November 2014 12:05]

      
A_Canadian_eh
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Thu, 06 November 2014 15:11
Knock wrote on Thu, 06 November 2014 03:34


I think it is a sum of what dandee and me wrote in the forum.
There is no video because it was streaming



Are you sure about that? Erwin's statement (as translated) seems to state pretty clearly that what happened can be "seen" - without there being any (saved) video available, how could anyone state with certainty what happened? Although it sure seems if DOW has the video it would help the furor to die down if they posted it.

Also have to say that it seems very strange that after DOW went as far as to have an "official" at each table that things were set up physically so that "extra" cards could get mixed into a hand. Why on earth would they not have had the officials handling all of the cards, whether being drawn or being played?
      
Knockando
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Thu, 06 November 2014 15:35
SYN A_Canadian_eh écrit le Thu, 06 November 2014 15:11

Knock wrote on Thu, 06 November 2014 03:34


I think it is a sum of what dandee and me wrote in the forum.
There is no video because it was streaming



Are you sure about that? Erwin's statement (as translated) seems to state pretty clearly that what happened can be "seen" - without there being any (saved) video available, how could anyone state with certainty what happened? Although it sure seems if DOW has the video it would help the furor to die down if they posted it.



TricTrac (organiser in Paris) didn't register all the event, only some moments for DoW, to make a report. Probably that helped DoW, but nobody else have seen these images since the event.

But in press release :
Quote:

Days of Wonder s'est alors penché sur les matchs de la finale, et découvert un cas flagrant de triche après examen et analyse. M. Pauelsen a admis sa fraude et consenti à rendre son titre et son trophée.

And in news :
Quote:

The previously announced champion, Erwin Pauelsen, has resigned his title after the discovery of evidence of cheating during the final matches.

They don't say they needed video for that Smile

SYN A_Canadian_eh écrit le Thu, 06 November 2014 15:11

Also have to say that it seems very strange that after DOW went as far as to have an "official" at each table that things were set up physically so that "extra" cards could get mixed into a hand. Why on earth would they not have had the officials handling all of the cards, whether being drawn or being played?


That is a good question

[Updated on: Thu, 06 November 2014 15:36]

      
Sysyphus
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Thu, 06 November 2014 15:56
SYN A_Canadian_eh écrit le Thu, 06 November 2014 15:11

Also have to say that it seems very strange that after DOW went as far as to have an "official" at each table that things were set up physically so that "extra" cards could get mixed into a hand. Why on earth would they not have had the officials handling all of the cards, whether being drawn or being played?



That's the part I don't get.
DoW made -rightfully- quite the effort to protect themselves on a legal standpoint.
Considering the unanimous positive reviews: they made an outstanding effort to welcome the players and to offer a unique venue.
They also made an impressive effort to organize tournaments all over the world.

Why not the same quality effort to offer a true competitive and consistent tournament and the best consistent refereeing ?

Cheating chances could have been reduced two ways:
1. With indeed best directions for the officials at the table. With all the reviews we had, and from what we saw on the video feed: Either officials did not follow instructions, either the instructions were too light.

2. With a slightly more competitive format, cheaters would have been identified a bit earlier.

ATN Drake wrote on Thu, 06 November 2014 10:47


That's what I need, a magic card generator. I wonder if they were locos? I think you need a witch's eye and the hair of Sysyphus for that though.


Where from ? I am bald.

[Updated on: Thu, 06 November 2014 16:03]

      
MaximouR - Ginglet
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Thu, 06 November 2014 16:29
Insofar DOW wrote several places Erwin acknowledged cheating.
On his side Erwin arises victim of injustice because he was mistaken in a turn, it would be good that the situation is resolved.

It seems the problem was not only a turn taken.

His answer, on another forum, wants to blame DOW, the referees or any community members that had doubts.
Perhaps there is evidences, but the organizers wanted to avoid Erwin full public disgrace over Facebook, DOW's site, and Twitter where Erwin is active.
As Erwin continues to deny and attack DaysOfWonder, so, now it's time to expose and explain all.

[Updated on: Thu, 06 November 2014 17:07]

      
ITA SuperPello
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Thu, 06 November 2014 17:27
About referees:
Every table had a referee. They all had a printed paper with short rules (number of starting tix, number of adding tix and how many to keep, Asian Rules and so on) and they all follow that. For other things they hadn't a common line. In my first game I could draw personally the cards. In the second game I couldn't touch them , I had to ask to referee how many cards wanted. I could touch and take draw open cards only. In the third game was the same of the second.
Another little colour on Referee: In the table 1 the referee was a TTR player: before game 1 he placed all the trains 10-10-10-10-5 before players arriving to the table.
In my table (5) it wasn't so.

About magic card generator:
In my opinion Dow intelligently worked only on second final for 2 reasons: 1) The damaged was only Drake so it's enough to declare a new champion without play again all the championship 2) This type of cheating of one of the 2 players was clearly demonstrable excluding the other.

I have a clear personal opinion on where was the magic card generator used in final 1 and in Europe Multi for sure (already talked about). Something related to the illness only during Tournament, the pastilles for sore throat and the frequently disappearance between a game and another.... but is not demostrable, is my opinion and the possible more cards in the boxes don't demostrate from who came the cards and when. And more important, DOW hasn't to play again the tournament because lot of players were damaged (the 9th placed Toon for example). And this, sincerely, DOW doesn't deserve it for what did for us in those Paris days.
So, very happy for justice done and let's go on. Next time will go better.



[Updated on: Thu, 06 November 2014 17:28]

      
A_Canadian_eh
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Thu, 06 November 2014 17:40
Sysyphus - Pommard wrote on Thu, 06 November 2014 08:56

SYN A_Canadian_eh écrit le Thu, 06 November 2014 15:11

Also have to say that it seems very strange that after DOW went as far as to have an "official" at each table that things were set up physically so that "extra" cards could get mixed into a hand. Why on earth would they not have had the officials handling all of the cards, whether being drawn or being played?

That's the part I don't get.

And it's not as though this would have had to be done because DOW anticipated a probability of cheating. I would have thought it would be even more important to do it so that every effort was made to ensure that something untoward didn't happen accidentally. Anyone who has played the actual board game, especially with 4 or 5 players, knows that there are a lot of innocent errors that can happen .. 3 cards pulled from the draw pile .. 5 cards turned in for a 6er .. 6 cards turned in for a 6er but one wrong colour .. losing track of whose turn it is..
By not using the table official (referee?) to prevent/correct these sort of innocent occurrences DOW also increased the chances of innocent players being suspected/accused of cheating. I know hindsight is always 20/20, but it still seems strange to me .. go to the effort of having table officials but not use them appropriately/effectively.
      
Micky8
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Thu, 06 November 2014 23:39
My opinion is that

1) if DOW publishes that Erwin has cheated they are able to prove it
2) Erwin has cheated during the whole tournement (unfortunatly I didn't ask to count the cards at the end of the first game of the semi-final) Mad
3) DOW is not responsible of Erwin behaviour (the organisation was nearly perfect, there should be just some additional precautions to avoid cheating)
4) this tournement was an ecceptional event for us with the opportunity to meet Alan and the other players Razz

I hope that DOW will continue to organise such events.

Thanks to them
      
MaximouR - Ginglet
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Fri, 07 November 2014 05:38
100% agree with Micky8.
I was there and it was a great day.


That the great players of all nations come together physically, it is unique.
We must again thank DOW for that.
All those players have met the publisher and creators, it is rewarding for us as players and for the editor.

The risk of cheating was even more important that price was important.

For me it would be very unfortunate that this incident of cheating finally stops this type of competition. Especially this cheat from a player who does not care about the harm it has done to this compettion, players and our editor because he will quit this game and will win more tournaments on other games with "talent."
      
DrakeStorm
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Fri, 07 November 2014 07:48
MaximouR - Ginglet wrote on Thu, 06 November 2014 20:38

100% agree with Micky8.
I was there and it was a great day.


That the great players of all nations come together physically, it is unique.
We must again thank DOW for that.
All those players have met the publisher and creators, it is rewarding for us as players and for the editor.

The risk of cheating was even more important that price was important.

For me it would be very unfortunate that this incident of cheating finally stops this type of competition. Especially this cheat from a player who does not care about the harm it has done to this compettion, players and our editor because he will quit this game and will win more tournaments on other games with "talent."



I agree with all this. Was a great day.

But I disagree it stops this type of competition. It just means it needs to be adapted - I could imagine players sitting across from each other each with an ipad or android tablet, etc. and play the games online with them streaming it online for people to watch. There still is potential.

      
ITA dandee
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Fri, 07 November 2014 09:07
My thoughts will not change.

He had some Loco added.
I've never seen a player's last hand of a 2p have 5 loco !!!.

But for Dow it was enough to charge him with an offense.

Justice has been done.
This is important.

I think the Dow is willing to organize something even more perfect to clear this small spot.

cu
dan
      
Knockando
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Fri, 07 November 2014 12:59
ITA dandee écrit le Fri, 07 November 2014 09:07


I've never seen a player's last hand of a 2p have 5 loco !!!.



You don't enough play with me Laughing Laughing
      
onyx puffin LOL
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Fri, 07 November 2014 14:28
ITA dandee wrote on Fri, 07 November 2014 03:07


He had some Loco added.
I've never seen a player's last hand of a 2p have 5 loco !!!.



Well, If I am going to bring extra cards up my sleeves, am I going to guess that I would need black, orange , yellow, or green for my beloved 4 green Cool or 5 green to get to Pittsburgh, another beloved spot?
Oh, that's right a loco handles them all.

      
ITA SuperPello
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Fri, 07 November 2014 14:52
Apart from the experiences of Dandee, Smile a cheater that wants to add cards of course will bring locos. So probably he wasted at home 1 box for type so managed 14 locos little sizes , 14 big sizes and 14 of 10th edition. (And this makes sense with his absence between a game and another, he had to set the locos. For those who watched streaming you could remember a short time arm wrestling between Drake and TV operator, waiting for Erwin).
Big size used for Europe and Asia multi, 14 little size for multi usa + 6 games 2p . That's probably the reason why he changed type of cheating in second final drawing more cards from deck, he finished or had few for the third final.

[Updated on: Fri, 07 November 2014 14:53]

      
Ich bin dein Doppelganger
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Re:Impressions from Paris - Thx to DoW/Asmodee Fri, 07 November 2014 18:35
I posted this on Sept 29th:

...then the most obvious solution would be to play all games on PCs/Laptops with all of the players in a particular game in the same room. If the games are open, but with hidden cards/tickets, then they can be projected on to a screen for spectators to observe.

Drake posted this on Nov 7th:

I could imagine players sitting across from each other each with an ipad or android tablet, etc. and play the games online with them streaming it online for people to watch. There still is potential.


At least I am thinking like a World Champion, even if I could never play like one Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile
      
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