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rpisarzjr
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Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Fri, 01 July 2005 05:20
Please provide a rules clarification for the following situations:

If, for whatever reason, a knights life points decrease to zero and the knight is then saved by the grail. Does the revived knight retain their cards?

Now assume I chose to reduce my life points to zero during the progression of evil phase of my turn, and again are revived by the grail. Does the revived knight get to complete their turn and perform a heroic action?
      
GreatDane
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Fri, 01 July 2005 07:48
Quote:

If, for whatever reason, a knights life points decrease to zero and the knight is then saved by the grail. Does the revived knight retain their cards?

Sure. Read the rules about the use of the Grail: "At any time during the game, if a Knight falls to zero Life points and is about to die..."

Notice you aren't dead just because your life points falls to zero. You still have the chance to be saved. By yourself, if you are able to play 3 identical cards as your Heroic Action, or by the Grail if used.
Quote:

Now assume I chose to reduce my life points to zero during the progression of evil phase of my turn, and again are revived by the grail. Does the revived knight get to complete their turn and perform a heroic action?


Absolutely. Death occurs at the end of a turn. Read the section of the rules about Losing Lives (page 12).

Actually the rules says: "at the end of your game turn." so technically could you die by losing your last life in a Quest on someone else's turn and still get your next turn.

However, I believe this is a glitch in the rules, and not how the game is intended to be played. Bruno?

Mik
      
Bruno des Montagnes
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Fri, 01 July 2005 16:29
Hello Mik !
as you know, my english level is quite chaotic, and i'm not sure to understand enough to engage a very "technical" discussion.
But i will try to answer to your questions, as i understand them:

- when you fall to zero life point, the only way to stay in life is to drink the graal (if you still have it, or if another knight offers it to you)
That means taht you can't play 3 cards to get one life point.
That means that you can't sacrifice one life point to finish the grail quest AND drink it on the same turn

- when you drink the grail, your turn is finished. That means that if this occurs during the evil phase, you can't do any heroic action on this turn. (you're too tired and you need some "hollidays" before coming back to fight all opponents)

i hope i gave you the answers you were looking for.
If not, don't hesitate to ask

bruno
      
Luke the Flaming
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Fri, 01 July 2005 18:08
Bruno,
Mik is reporting that since rules say that you die at the end of YOUR turn, someone may think (rule lawyers... Rolling Eyes ) that if you die (because of a failed Quest) during the turn of another player, you still get to play your turn as normal and die only when it ends (assume the Grail is NOT in the hands of the knights: already used or not yet taken).

Example: Tristan and Arthur are fighting the Picts (the King has only 1 life left). It's Tristan's turn. He draw a black card: the 4th Pict. Excalibur and the Grail haven't been taken yet. Thus the King lose his last life. However, since it's Tristan's turn, he can still play HIS turn (both Evil phase and Heroic phase) and only after that he'll be eliminated.

I can't imagine such a "zombie knight" wandering throught Camelot... Wink
      
GreatDane
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Sat, 02 July 2005 09:38
Luke

I can't imagine such a "zombie knight" wandering throught Camelot...


Neither can I. But I didn't write the rules!!!
Twisted Evil

Bruno

Hello Mik !
- when you fall to zero life point, the only way to stay in life is to drink the graal (if you still have it, or if another knight offers it to you)
That means that you can't play 3 cards to get one life point.
That means that you can't sacrifice one life point to finish the grail quest AND drink it on the same turn)


Yes, that is covered by the rules (Sacrifice). I forgot to read this section carefully enough.

Quote:

- when you drink the grail, your turn is finished. That means that if this occurs during the evil phase, you can't do any heroic action on this turn. (you're too tired and you need some "hollidays" before coming back to fight all opponents
Basicly your turn ends immediately if you go down to zero Life points.


So basicly your turn ends immediately when you drop to zero Life points. No matter whether you die or are saved by the Grail. Better include that in the FAQ.

- and make official erata for page 12 (C. Losing a Life point):
"you die and disppear from the game at the end of your game turn." Remove the part in red.
      
macho
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Thu, 21 July 2005 16:06
Bruno des Montagnes wrote on Fri, 01 July 2005 08:29



- when you fall to zero life point, the only way to stay in life is to drink the graal (if you still have it, or if another knight offers it to you)
That means taht you can't play 3 cards to get one life point.
That means that you can't sacrifice one life point to finish the grail quest AND drink it on the same turn

- when you drink the grail, your turn is finished. That means that if this occurs during the evil phase, you can't do any heroic action on this turn. (you're too tired and you need some "hollidays" before coming back to fight all opponents)

bruno


I have another question, I think I know the answer but - - -

We had a situation yesterday when Morgan came out and took a life point from each of our knights. 2 of our knights (Arthur and Kay)had 1 lifepoint each so they both died.
We did have the grail, however, so we were able to heal one of the knights (Kay) right away.
Morgan came out on the other knight (Arthur) that died actual turn and that knight had a Lady of the Lake card. We interpreted the rules as that he (Arthur) could play LoL and heal back up to 2 lifepoints. Then his (Arthur's)turn ended.
Also, what if the dying knight (Arthur) had Fate - could he use that to regain lifepoints during the turn that he died as a result of a black card being played?
The rules give an example of not being able to sacrifice a lifepoint to secure the grail and healing yourself in one turn but do not clarify any OTHER circumstances in which you can heal yourself because of the action of a black card.
Please clarify.
Thanks

[Updated on: Thu, 21 July 2005 16:08]

      
Bruno des Montagnes
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Thu, 21 July 2005 17:21
i think that rules are clear concrning that point:

On your turn you have 2 steps:
1- progression of evil
2- heroic action

if you die during step 1, the only way to be saved is use of the grail
Other ways (lady of the lake, etc..) are heroic actions. And you can't do an heroic action during step 1
      
macho
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Thu, 21 July 2005 18:19
I don't like to disagree with the game designers (it is a great game) however, the rules are NOT as clear as they could be.

Before your verdict a game turn consisted of two parts
turn part A - progression of evil
turn part B - heroic actions
Now under the section "Progression of Evil section C - Losing a life point" it says that " - - - - you die and disappear from the game at THE END OF YOUR TURN". Thus, it could (and has been) be interpreted by many players that you could play a card as part of the turn phase part B and heal yourself by the Lady of the Lake, Fate or trading 3 cards.

Clearly, you have now stated that if you die as a result of a Black card or any other action regardless of at what point in the turn - the ONLY thing that can save you is the Grail. No heroic actions WHATSOEVER can help you heal and regain lifepoints.

That is fine - I now have a ruling and play the game properly.

I merely wish to point out that the rules are not as clear as you claim them to be. I know Luke the Flaming will roll his eyes and calls me a "rules lawyer" which is ok. Would he rather have people interpret the rules incorrectly?

I, like many others in these forums, have played many games from easy to difficult (Risk to 3rd Reich and Squad Leader). To date, I have not found the "perfect rule-book) - all have needed revisions and FAQ's to accompany them.

Maybe you could add a section to the website "Official rulings on unclear points" or something to that effect. I know that you have stated you are creating an FAQ - that would be great as well.

Again, I love your game - keep up the good work.
      
Luke the Flaming
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Thu, 21 July 2005 19:36
This was debated elsewhere. Rules are wrong ("at the end of your turn" instead of "at the end of the current phase"). It's time for a FAQ... Wink
      
GreatDane
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Fri, 22 July 2005 07:13
Luke the Flaming wrote on Thu, 21 July 2005 19:36

This was debated elsewhere.


Actually it was in this very thread - just a few posts earlier...
Cool
      
macho
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Fri, 22 July 2005 07:48
Actually no, Great Dane, you are wrong. What I was asking was whether Fate or Lady of the Lake could save you during the heroic action phase of your turn. You were just asking about the grail.

The only part that was similar and debated was the fact that the rules were unclear (and needed clarification) as to whether you die immediately after the "progression of evil" or the "heroic action " phase of a players turn.

I find it kind of funny that the "Fate" card cannot save you from certain death. Isn't that what fate is in real life?

Also, please don't imply that I do not read these forums or the very post that I am replying to.
      
infocynic
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March 2005
Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Fri, 22 July 2005 08:33
I know that if you are revived by the grail ON YOUR TURN, you lose the rest of the turn (with the exception that if it was Sacrifice during Step 2 for a 2nd heroic action, you complete that action).

Go back to a Morgan example.

I, Sir Kay, hold the Grail and have 2 life. King Arthur and Sirs Tristan and Gallahad are at 1 life each. No other loyal knights are in play.

I draw Morgan: All loyal knights lose 1 life.

Seeing that Arthur, if kept alive, will be able to continue our quest for victory, I revive him with my grail. I finish my turn as normal. Sirs Tristan and Gallahad will be remembered fondly (although they may not remember me fondly!).

It would now normally be Arthur's turn. Does he get his normal turn or must he skip the turn because of drinking from the grail?
      
macho
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Fri, 22 July 2005 08:51
I would imagine that Arthur gets to play his normal turn.
      
Luke the Flaming
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Fri, 22 July 2005 10:03
GreatDane wrote on Fri, 22 July 2005 07:13

Luke the Flaming wrote on Thu, 21 July 2005 19:36

This was debated elsewhere.


Actually it was in this very thread - just a few posts earlier...
Cool



Oh man, I'm starting to lose count of all these topics... Razz
      
GreatDane
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Fri, 22 July 2005 14:59
macho wrote on Fri, 22 July 2005 07:48

Actually no, Great Dane, you are wrong. What I was asking was whether Fate or Lady of the Lake could save you during the heroic action phase of your turn. You were just asking about the grail.

Also, please don't imply that I do not read these forums or the very post that I am replying to.


I haven't implied anything concerning you, and I haven't asked about the Grail.
I merely replied to a post made by Luke.
Mik

      
Republica
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Sat, 30 July 2005 10:08
A nice variant could be being able to sacrifice yourself with your last life point and still perform that last heroic action.

That way a knight can make his last contribution with his last breath, maybe even winning a battle after dead. I think it would fit in the spirit of the game. Since you volunteer to sacrifice yourself (you don't lose that life point by a third party), you can prepare yourself mentally and die killing.

So, as your evil action you could drop to zero life points and as your heroic action, as you die, you can perform your last (ever) heroic action. No healing action or anything that heals you is allowed (no Grail...), however. If you get to finish a quest with that last heroic action, you don't gain lifepoints or anything. In other words, you die for good, you die killing.

      
Luke the Flaming
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Sat, 30 July 2005 11:55
Republica wrote on Sat, 30 July 2005 10:08

A nice variant could be being able to sacrifice yourself with your last life point and still perform that last heroic action.

That way a knight can make his last contribution with his last breath, maybe even winning a battle after dead. I think it would fit in the spirit of the game. Since you volunteer to sacrifice yourself (you don't lose that life point by a third party), you can prepare yourself mentally and die killing.

So, as your evil action you could drop to zero life points and as your heroic action, as you die, you can perform your last (ever) heroic action. No healing action or anything that heals you is allowed (no Grail...), however. If you get to finish a quest with that last heroic action, you don't gain lifepoints or anything. In other words, you die for good, you die killing.




That is already allowed when you lose the last life point to perform the second action of your turn. Because THAT is when you are "mentally prepared" and thus can act even if dying.
If you are killed in the Evil Phase, your last action was to stop the forces of Evil (no Catapults or black card in that turn).
Of course you're free to use any house rule that you (and your friends) like.
I also hope that you don't die so often (we always try to win with all the knights alive, it's a "better victory" for us Wink ).
Have fun! Smile
      
Republica
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Sat, 30 July 2005 17:33
Luke the Flaming wrote on Sat, 30 July 2005 11:55

That is already allowed (..)


Haha, it's funny to come up with a variant that is actually an official rule. Tells a lot about my group's rules reading abilities! Laughing

[Updated on: Sat, 30 July 2005 17:35]

      
infocynic
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Sat, 30 July 2005 19:03
Make sure that you understand this -- if you ADVANCE EVIL by sacrificing your life, you DON'T get to complete a heroic action. If you advance evil, do a heroic action, and THEN sacrifice your last life, you DO get to complete it.
      
Aardwolf44
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Re:Death and Save By The Grail - Rules Clarification Tue, 30 August 2005 03:02
(How I read the rules wrt having 0 life)

Page 12 of the Rules is clear enough to me.
The 4th paragraph starts off "Your only hope:"

So, you can reduce to 0 life to finish a quest that 'would' give you a life point... but that wont help you now. The rules clearly state your ONLY hope, is the Grail.

Page 3 in the Book of Quests, the final paragraph titled "The End of a Quest"
The 3 key facts to paraphrase (Order being important):
"Upon a Quests completion...
1) Remove all cards/figures from the board
2) Return all the knights home as a free action
3) THEN apply the effects of the Quests completion."

Think of it like this (assuming its a victory):
The knights are celebrating victory back at the castle with a big feast, and everyone present gains more stamina(life) as a result

If you reduced yourself to 0 life to complete the quest, you aren't really in a state that allows you to walk back to the castle and be arround at the time the effect of the Quests completion are applied.
If you drink the Grail and have 4 life, you can return home (and gain another from the quest completion)

(Key fact for me, is the line saying "Your only hope:"...)

EDIT: Actually, after all that... the top of page 17 in the rules is pretty conclusive Smile

---Korhil

[Updated on: Tue, 30 August 2005 07:04]

      
    
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