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TuS WhiteTrain
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Re:The Nations Cup Tue, 02 August 2005 19:54
Hi staycool,I`m german, if somebody cares and i will update that in the profile.
cya
      
*player39229
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Re:The Nations Cup Fri, 05 August 2005 05:32
Bassie,

I apologise for not yet accepting or declining your request that I act as tournament director. I haven't yet had time to post a post-mortem of the Open Tournament's organisation. I hope to be able to do that today (and give everybody a chance to savage me properly over my decisions). It will be a rather long article, as you might imagine.

I do hope to be able to act as tournament director for the Nation's Cup, but it depends on what happens in the post-mortem. Basically, if everybody thinks I'm a poor director after that, it would be better for the Nation's Cup if I stood aside.

However, the post-mortem will have some organisational ideas which I would wish to implement should I act as tournament director for the Nation's Cup. If it is necessary to discuss those ideas a bit, would it be possible to delay finalisation of the rules for the Nation's Cup beyond Sunday? Because there are one or two points I think are pretty important. (Things like ensuring that there is time in a tournament schedule for the TD to engage in PM conversations to resolve irregularities.)
      
Peter de Zeeuw
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Tournament Director and Absence in the Beginning of September Fri, 05 August 2005 10:21
Tjandjahall wrote on Fri, 05 August 2005 05:32

I do hope to be able to act as tournament director for the Nation's Cup, but it depends on what happens in the post-mortem. Basically, if everybody thinks I'm a poor director after that, it would be better for the Nation's Cup if I stood aside.


Dude, you know my feelings towards you...

I think you're a good TD. You did a fine job with the Open Tournament. It's a stressy thing being a TD and to make sure everything goes without chaos. Not everybody is able to do that. The Nations Cup will be a big thing, no doubt about that. But if you're willing and able to do the job, you have my vote as the TD.

One other thing. I already PM-ed Bassie about this matter. As much as I want to play and take names in the Nations Cup, I won't be able to for three weeks. As of 12 September I'll be on a holiday in the United States.
But don't worry! I'll still be with you in spirit!

(And I'll see if I can sabotage some railroad tracks to thwart the Americans. But, ssst! Don't tell anyone! Twisted Evil )

D.I.S.
      
SKMorefield
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Re:Tournament Director and Absence in the Beginning of September Fri, 05 August 2005 14:10
Peter de Zeeuw wrote on Fri, 05 August 2005 04:21
One other thing. I already PM-ed [b

Bassie[/b] about this matter. As much as I want to play and take names in the Nations Cup, I won't be able to for three weeks. As of 12 September I'll be on a holiday in the United States.
But don't worry! I'll still be with you in spirit!


I don't see why you couldn't be on the roster and play when you are available?? They'll just have to have a sub for you for those three weeks. We will have around 7 on our roster for these very things, but even if you can find 5 Dutchies that would be enough.

Quote:

(And I'll see if I can sabotage some railroad tracks to thwart the Americans. But, ssst! Don't tell anyone! Twisted Evil )

D.I.S.



Man, D.I.S., here, in the United States... scary thought... Crying or Very Sad We will need to be sure Homeland Security is properly mobilized for your visit. If you make your way to the Appalachian Mountains you better not start any trouble here or you might find yourself on the business end of a 12-gauge. Wink Wink


SKM

      
SMP-bassie
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Re:The Nations Cup Fri, 05 August 2005 14:58
tjandjahall,

I will postpone the finalisation on the rules to the 14th of August. I read your post mortem on the open tournament (man, you're getting more serious every day! have a laugh! Laughing ), and I'm happy to say that many of your ideas are already in my proposal of the rules. To meet all your proposals, I have the following suggestion:

- You accept your position as a TD;
- You start a thread which you will update with schedule of play and participants;
- All captains (and only them!) will reply to this thread by confirming their registration to the tournament and the names of the team members.

Once the tournament has started, the captains will update it weekly with the scores and you will update it with draws and standings. The 1-to-1 games can be arranged by the players themselves. One would loose overview if all players would put their availability in the same forum, let alone the privacy matter. If players would have problems with scheduling, it might be good if their captains publish their availability so you can judge what to do if they don't finish their match.

Angel and others,

I will change the rule of flipping a coin. Check the rules for updates.

Peter,

Like SKMorefield said (it was in my reply too, by the way): we will have a team of 6 players, so you will easily be substituted. But covering the loss of quality will be somewhat harder though... Wink
      
*player39229
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Re:The Nations Cup Sat, 06 August 2005 01:24
bassie wrote on Fri, 05 August 2005 22:58

I will postpone the finalisation on the rules to the 14th of August.

Cool. I don't think there will be much at all I would want to change, but an extra few days to make sure would be good.

Quote:

I read your post mortem on the open tournament (man, you're getting more serious every day! have a laugh! Laughing ), and I'm happy to say that many of your ideas are already in my proposal of the rules.

Yes, you've done a good job with those rules, though I haven't had time to sit down and read them thoroughly.

Quote:

- You accept your position as a TD;

Done! I hereby accept.

Quote:

- You start a thread which you will update with schedule of play and participants;

Will do, within a few days (to give me time to think about what I need to say there and what I need from captains.

Quote:

Once the tournament has started, the captains will update it weekly with the scores and you will update it with draws and standings.

Yes, that's perfect.

Quote:

The 1-to-1 games can be arranged by the players themselves. One would loose overview if all players would put their availability in the same forum, let alone the privacy matter.

Yes, you are quite right there. For a team tournament, I wouldn't want every player posting to the organisational thread, just the captains.

Also, a round robin format gives flexibility in dealing with late matches and admin problems, due to the fact that later draws are not dependent on earlier results. I would post the whole round-robin draw at once, too, which allows players and captains a lot more time to communicate with the other team and get things organised.

That will change in the playoffs late in the tournament, of course, but much of the Nation's Cup will be easier in this regard.
      
SMP-bassie
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Re:The Nations Cup Sun, 07 August 2005 12:56
Everyone,

I am glad to hear tjandjahall accepted to be TD. This means the following:

- From now on, I will just be the captain of the Dutch team. Every question regarding organisation and rules should be addressed to tjandjahall;
- I will still update the rules thread once tjandjahall has announced the changes he wants to make.
- tjandjahall will, in the coming week, open a thread concerning the Nations Cup in which he will ask all captains to reply to the thread with their team, so everyone can see in the forum which teams have registered. Tuesday, the 6th of September, he will post a full draw of the round robin on that thread. From then on, he and the captains will update their reply to the thread with scores, line-up, and standings. More to this can be read in the rules thread.

- To all captains: wait with registering your team until tjandjahall opens a thread that is devoted to the tournament.

tjandjahall, could you leave a space open for the Austrian team? They told me that they would join but almost all of them are on holiday in Canada/Alaska and will only return at the 4th of September. They assured me they are going to join.
      
*player39229
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Re:The Nations Cup Mon, 08 August 2005 05:11
Bassie,

I've had a closer look at the tournament rules, and there are a couple of changes that need to be made.

Firstly, you state that in the playoffs, matches end immediately upon one player winning five games. However, the number of games won is important for when each team wins 2 matches in the clash, so we still need the full set of 9 games played out. Unless you intended for the tiebreak to essentially be based on the number of games won by the two losing players? (This limits the ability of a team to get through the playoffs on the strength of two extremely good players, who each count on winning 9-0, thus forcing a best-of-3-games tiebreaker in the worst case.)

I will be posting the entire round-robin draw before the first round begins. This will prevent any problems which might be caused by my being late posting the new draw (as I cannot absolutely guarantee being on time - even the best TD can get hit by a bus crossing the road). This will also allow teams to play rounds early, which I am happy to allow as long as I am informed of when the matches are to be played. Early matches will allow teams a means to deal with scheduling problems - the sort which can take an entire team offline for a week. Of course, it depends on the other team being amenable, which is completely up to them.

The official organisational language of the Nation's Cup will be English. Why? Because I don't speak any other language. I would prefer that teams select captains who can speak English, at least to an extent. Note that teams are free to organise themselves any way they like, as long as there is one team captain to communicate with me and the other captains, so I don't mind if one person is organising a team in the background and passing on messages to somebody else for that person to translate and post. I also don't mind if a team captain needs to use Babelfish to translate. Babelfish results should be good enough for this.

Team members must be registered with the login name under which they will play the matches. The player must not change his or her login name for the duration of the tournament. (Because it is hard to verify results, should verification become necessary, if players change their names in the middle of things.)

I reserve the right to call a delay to the tournament if necessary. This will mostly be done only if some time is required for administrative functions, but there could be other reasons for delays.

I reserve the right to make organisational changes during the tournament, as long as they don't affect play or results in any way. This is in case we try a method of organising it and find that method does not work.


Could you change your rules post to reflect the hard parts of the above? Thanks.

And a couple of things I'd like to ask about, but not necessarily change depending on the answers...

The rules state that teams may not add team members after the start of the tournament. I have participated in similar tournaments to this which did allow new team members to be added during the tournament, and it didn't generally cause a problem. (A couple of years I got roped into my brother's tennis team due to this. I was an awful tennis player, but at least it got a full team on the court.) I don't mind enforcing that rule, but I was wanting to discuss whether it improves the tournament structure?

I am thinking that it might be better to require that team captains specify which team members will play in a round a week in advance. This will allow captains and players time to exchange PMs and work out when they will play before the start of the round, which means they will have a full week to play their matches - not a week minus two days to send PMs back and forth. Thoughts?


Also, I wish to let it be known that I am Australian. I haven't heard of an Australian team being considered, but if one is created I would have that national connection. I intend to be neutral in the running of this tournament, and you are unlikely to find a prospective tournament director who is not a citizen of somewhere, but proprietry demands that I make the declaration.
      
onyx puffin LOL
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Re:The Nations Cup Fri, 12 August 2005 06:26
SKM,

Are you still looking for USA participants in top 100? If so I am interested. I have not been around much this summer, so my rank has been dropping fast with the new scoring system in place I guess. Before 2nd tournament, I was under 50. Anyway, if you are interested and need a 5th. I am available now.

By the way, where has Rek been?
      
SMP-bassie
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Re:The Nations Cup Mon, 15 August 2005 15:27
Everyone,

The rules of the Nation's Cup are finalized. They can be found in the following thread:

The Nation's Cup - rules
      
erps
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Re:The Nations Cup Wed, 17 August 2005 20:21
Hi

OhOh. Each team plays against all other teams...
Look, i love the idea of many national teams. But, to this moment, nations like Belgium and Brazil have already appointed and we are talking of the possibilty of two or more teams from one nation (surely Germany, USA with eight players is a candidate too), international Teams and one DOW-Team.

I want them all playing! But this tournament will last more than three months... Please consider changing the rules and play with 2, maybe 4 groups.

Nobody can follow such a long tournament. There are people on vacation, ill, bored etc.

bye, erps

Now a Member!
      
*player39229
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 18 August 2005 02:51
erps, we shall see how many teams enter. I, for one, am not bothered by the possibility of the tournament lasting several months, but on the other hand we don't want to be playing half a year, either. The tournament allows plenty of reserves, so holidays should not be a problem.
      
*player39229
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 18 August 2005 08:59
By the way, everybody, the rules have been finalised.

I do reserve the right to change organisational procedures, if the way I organise things proves not to work, but other than that, there should be no need for any changes.
      
erps
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 18 August 2005 14:02
Hi

Okay, i was too late Sad

I thought the nations cup would be perfect for an annual event. Let's face it: In four years, nobody cares about ticket to ride online. But playing a nations cup over three maybe four months reduces the chance of playing the same event next year...

Another Point i already posted in the german forum: Is there any chance for opening a single server by DOW only for the nations cup?? Everybody can join this server and look at the games, but only the members of the national teams can play. Hey, this is a tournament! Without supporters? reporters?? And i doubt, that one of the contestants is cheating by observing his games.

bye, erps

P.S. To the top-players: Let the people look at your games at the nations cup...
      
SMP-bassie
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 18 August 2005 15:21
erps, from the reactions to the Nations Cup until now I figure we might have about twelve teams:

- Austria (Angel?)
- Belgium (gwen)
- Brazil (Burgos)
- DoW (eric)
- Finland (pilke)
- France (léachris)
- Germany I (Razamanaz)
- Germany II (losgehts)
- Netherlands (bassie)
- USA I (SKMorefield)
- USA II (sparkybuzzed?)
- World United (Jac_?)

This would mean the tournament would take exactly three months. I don't see a problem. Of course, if we have too many teams to play a full round robin, tjandjahall can decide to split the group. But let's see how things proceed: we might have fewer or more than twelve teams...

To answer the question of SKMorefield in the "multiple accounts"-thread: it is stated in the rules that a player can only play for one account in the tournament. Of course, anyone who knows a player who plays for two different accounts in the tournament should inform the TD about it, but I fully trust the teams and their captains in this matter.
      
erps
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 18 August 2005 15:36
Hi

Ok, let's play Smile

But one (last!) thing: Multiple accounts of one player are considered a problem, that's absolutely right. Now let me construct the following scenario: It's the last round of the round robin. The team germany I (or USA I) is fourth place, the team germany II (or USA II) last place. They play against each other. By loosing the game it is for sure the prime team is loosing the fourth place...

Please let teams of the same nation play against each other in the FIRST round!

bye, erps
      
OLE sebbo
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 18 August 2005 16:20
bassie schrieb am Thu, 18 August 2005 15:21


- Germany I (Razamanaz)
- Germany II (losgehts)



AFAIK there will be three german teams. Correct me Raz, if im wrong.

Chapeau
sebbo
      
Razamanaz
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Re:The Nations Cup Sun, 21 August 2005 15:26
Hi Sebbo ! Hi Bassie ! Hi Folks !

Yes there is a third german team !
The captain should be SEBBO.

Razamanaz
      
*player39229
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Re:The Nations Cup Tue, 23 August 2005 03:24
A reminder, everyone, that you need to sign up your teams in the Nation's Cup organisational thread. I'm hearing a lot of talk about teams without seeing very many sign-ups!

And for the DoW team, I know the rules state that you guys don't have to register your players, but I will still need somebody to act as captain, so I'll need a sign-up from you too.

Remember, too, that you can add players to your team list up until the 4th of September, so if you are waiting to recruit as many players as possible, it would be nice if you could register your team soon even if you don't have the complete list of players.
      
TuS WhiteTrain
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Re:The Nations Cup Tue, 23 August 2005 10:10
Hi folks, i know i start complaining at a very late stage, but there is one thing, i think we should think about again.

Does it really make sense to continue a game after leading or trailing 3-0. I dont see any advantage of this, except that it takes longer. And i don t know any other game where you continue the game when it is absolutely clear you lost.

Greetings White

      
*player39229
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Re:The Nations Cup Wed, 24 August 2005 03:59
WhiteTrain wrote on Tue, 23 August 2005 18:10

Does it really make sense to continue a game after leading or trailing 3-0. I dont see any advantage of this, except that it takes longer.

Countback. When the round robin is complete, your team may have tied with another team on the number of clashes won. We would then examine the number of matches won by each team to determine which team progresses to the playoff. If you have still tied, we would examine the number of games won over the course of the round robin. If it comes to that, you may be very glad that you did play the last two games in that earlier match.

And similarly, in the playoffs, if your team wins two matches, the number of games won would determine who progresses.

Of course, you are free to refuse to play the last two games if you prefer. Your opponent would be awarded two game wins by forfeit. Just don't complain that you weren't warned if it bites you on the rear.
      
*player39229
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Re:The Nations Cup Wed, 24 August 2005 04:00
That's also the reason why you would want to play your match even if all three of your team-mates have already won their matches.
      
Franck
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Re:The Nations Cup Wed, 24 August 2005 10:31
Hi tjandjahall

tjandjahall écrit le Tue, 23 August 2005 03:24

And for the DoW team, I know the rules state that you guys don't have to register your players, but I will still need somebody to act as captain, so I'll need a sign-up from you too.

Don't worry, I didn't forget...
Juste a little busy Rolling Eyes
I add a post right now...
      
Donisl
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Re:The Nations Cup Wed, 24 August 2005 13:10
Hi all,

i thought about the cup. and i think a little price for the winner of the cup is a really nice idea Cool . for example: a free account for the next 6 month or somethink else.
i wrote an article in the german forum. please read it...

i hope you all enjoy this... (think about it) and give answers..

thank you.

nice greetings
Donisl Razz
      
arios99
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Re:The Nations Cup Wed, 24 August 2005 13:32
Or a DoW team T-shirt ?
Franck écrit le Wed, 24 August 2005 10:54


Look, we already have our team shirt... Wink

http://static.daysofwonder.com/images/dow_shirt.jpg


      
SMP-bassie
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Re:The Nations Cup Wed, 24 August 2005 14:13
Donisl, arios99,

I asked DoW about this some time ago. I wanted it to be a surprise but I should have known I would not be the only one to come up with this idea. Smile

Please remain patient until the end of the tournament. We're working on it... Very Happy

cu soon, bas
      
SKMorefield
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Re:The Nations Cup Wed, 24 August 2005 18:13
Great, if the Germans win we'll be introduced to Raz4 and Raz5 to go along with versions 1-3. Wink
      
chip4fun
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 25 August 2005 08:28
Is there a RAZ 4 and 5????

[Updated on: Thu, 25 August 2005 08:32]

      
TuS WhiteTrain
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 25 August 2005 08:34
tjandjahall schrieb am Wed, 24 August 2005 03:59


Countback. When the round robin is complete, your team may have tied with another team on the number of clashes won. We would then examine the number of matches won by each team to determine which team progresses to the playoff. If you have still tied, we would examine the number of games won over the course of the round robin. If it comes to that, you may be very glad that you did play the last two games in that earlier match.

And similarly, in the playoffs, if your team wins two matches, the number of games won would determine who progresses.




Thanks for your answer tjandjahall, however i cannot agree. If you put it this way it only makes sense to play all games for the looser, because why should i continue playing after a 3-0 victory(its the highest which can be achieved), however when i lose the first 3 and hope to improve on the last 2,it makes sense, because it cannot get worse. I don t think that way(cause it has a negative touch somehow)
      
*player24262
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 25 August 2005 08:35
white, I understand your opinion, but these are the rules Confused

Everybody should read them before signing in and if disagreement, not join
( not in good english but it's early Wink )

[Updated on: Thu, 25 August 2005 09:04]

      
TuS WhiteTrain
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 25 August 2005 08:36
And once more, i cant think of any other sport or game, where round robins are handled like this and let me guess why.


BECAUSE IT DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE


Greetings White
      
Peter de Zeeuw
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Batman Thu, 25 August 2005 09:45
WhiteTrain wrote on Thu, 25 August 2005 08:36

And once more, i cant think of any other sport or game, where round robins are handled like this and let me guess why.


All this talk about Robin... I can't stand it anymore!!!

What about Batman?!?!

Tu du du du du du du du tu du du du du du du du, Batmaaan!
Tu du du du du du du du tu du du du du du du du, Batmaaan!

Confused

D.I.S.

P.S.
I know; stupid joke. But it's still early and I lost a lot of points yesterday. I write better stuff when I'm sober. Sad

[Updated on: Thu, 25 August 2005 09:48]

      
*player39229
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 25 August 2005 09:45
WhiteTrain wrote on Thu, 25 August 2005 16:34

Thanks for your answer tjandjahall, however i cannot agree. If you put it this way it only makes sense to play all games for the looser, because why should i continue playing after a 3-0 victory(its the highest which can be achieved), however when i lose the first 3 and hope to improve on the last 2,it makes sense, because it cannot get worse. I don t think that way(cause it has a negative touch somehow)

In a best-of-five match, 5-0 is the best possible result. 3-0 is incomplete.

Allow me to give you an example which might help you to see the point.

Four players, Alison, Betty, Cameron and David, play a round robin tournament, each playing one best-of-five match against the others. The results for the first two rounds are:

Alison vs Betty: 3-2
Cameron vs David: 1-4

Alison vs Cameron: 1-4
Betty vs David: 1-4

Going into the third round, David is leading the tournament, having won 2 matches and 6 games. Cameron is second, having won 1 match and 5 games - just ahead of Alison on 1 match and 4 games.

In the final round of the tournament, Alison plays David. However, winning the match will not be enough, as that will leave her tied with David on the match scores. She also needs to beat David on the game score, or she will lose on the tournament's chosen countback mechanic. If Alison wins 3-0, she still loses to David, as David will have won 8 games to Alison's 7. If Alison plays the fourth game and wins that too, she will tie with David, each having won 8 games. Only if Alison wins all five games of the best-of-five will she have a chance of being overall tournament winner. And if she loses even a single game, David will beat her.

On top of that, Cameron is not yet out of the running. If Alison wins, Cameron can still beat her by winning more matches than Alison. Cameron wants to play his full set of five games, to give him the best possible chance to rack up the wins needed to beat a victorious Alison.


Of course, the Nation's Cup tournament is rather more complex, requiring teams to tie on both clash totals and match totals before game totals are examined. However, the principle still holds.


It is possible to disagree with the method which has been chosen to determine rankings in the Nation's Cup. There are other methods of handling this. However, I am yet to encounter a tournament scoring system that isn't flawed in at least some way. The Nation's Cup will simply use one of a number of scoring systems which have been used in tournaments in the past. (Mathematically, there are points in common with the theory behind electoral systems. Arrow's Theorem of Social Welfare - edit: what the heck was I thinking? That's Arrow's Theorem of Social Choice, not Welfare, and I know it - tells us that no ideal electoral system can be constructed. Indeed, look at how much variation there is in electoral systems from place to place, as different nations make different compromises regarding electoral ideals. I suspect that a variation on the proof could show that no ideal tournament countback system can be constructed.)


Another approach to countback which is sometimes used in tournaments is to award victory to the player/team involved in the tie according to the result of the matches/clash between those opponents. To expand the above example, suppose the third round results are...

Alison vs David: 4-1
Betty vs Cameron: 2-3

This leaves Alison, David and Cameron each having won two matches. If we then examine the results of the Alison/David, Alison/Cameron and Cameron/David matches, we find that Alison has beaten David, David has beaten Cameron and Cameron has beaten Alison. Thus, we cannot rank the three players by following that principle.

Which does not mean that this isn't a valid approach to tournament tiebreaking. It is just that you need some further principle to break the tie in a case such as this one. Once you have two tiebreaking principles, which principle is superior to the other is a matter of opinion.


Now, as I have a little time at the moment and I enjoy discussion of such matters, I have been prepared to try to explain the reasoning behind the system in use for the Nation's Cup. I am still happy to engage in discussion, as time permits. This should not be taken to indicate that any debate will change the rules for the Nation's Cup at this time. The rule for the tournament has been set, and I will not change it. It is possible that the Nation's Cup will be repeated - perhaps it could become an annual event. If so, the rules might change in the next iteration of the tournament as a result of popular debate. It simply would not be appropriate to change the rules at this point.

As I have already said, if a player believes there is nothing more to be gained after winning three matches, that player is free to forfeit the last two games. It seems to me that you would be giving up the chance to win an extra two games, and you are giving the opposing team an extra two games for nothing, but if that isn't enough incentive to finish it, that's up to you. I won't penalise you further.


(Yes, I'm overly serious and talkative on this matter. That's why I got my degree in mathematics.)

[Updated on: Fri, 26 August 2005 05:01]

      
*player97287
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 25 August 2005 09:58
Chill out, White.

About this system making sense, I cannot think of another sport where round-robins are handled that way either, but that's because I cannot think of a sport with round-robins that include a number of games at all. All I can think of are round-robins with single games (so of course you just play the one game) or direct elimination with several games (so no need to break a tie).

This system here seems a little unnatural but it nonetheless makes sense to me, for the winner and the loser. As a winner, you could very well tie with someone else that won the same number of clashes as you. You'll need all your extra matches won if that occurs. Whether these extra matches were won in a clash that you won or lost doesn't matter.

The only way you wouldn't need them is towards the last rounds of the round-robin, where final positions are clearer and you can see whether you'll need the extra matches or not. E.g. "if we win this last clash, we'll tie with team B for first position and will need as many matches as possible to break the tie. If we lose, we'll be third, no matter how many matches we win because we won't tie with anybody." In this situation you can always forfeit the matches to the other team once you see you don't need them (though I don't know about the fair play of that).

More importantly maybe, as you said your complaint comes a little late. This was proposed when the tournie was organized, approved by some players, disapproved by none, and the rules were set with it. The odd that this rule will change now that we're so far in the process are close to nil. So you can vent but that's about it. Besides, you can play your way: all you need to do is forfeit the remaining matches or games once a winner is known. As far as the tournament is concerned though, these matches and games will be considered played and lost by you.



Edit: Ah, our TD beat me to it and said most of this in the previous post. Oh well.

[Updated on: Thu, 25 August 2005 10:06]

      
OLE sebbo
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 25 August 2005 11:22
Hello,

ive created a Yahoo-Group for the internal communication of my team. Its much more comfortable then sending mass-pms around Wink. For them who dont know what im talking about, Yahoo-Groups are a free Mailinglist-System, provided by Yahoo. Everyone can register, found his own group and invite people to join. Every group has his own mailadress. If one of the groupmembers send an email to this adress, it will be distributed to himself and all other groupmembers and also stored at the server, so everytime every member can reconstruct the whole conversation!

If someone is interested in founding a group for his own team, i can write a short howto and post it here in the forum.

I strongly recommend, to found such a group for the Cup-organisation, with the TD and all captains as members. This would save much time and nerves, believe me!

Cheers
sebbo
      
TuS WhiteTrain
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 25 August 2005 18:57
redPEPPER schrieb am Thu, 25 August 2005 09:58

Chill out, White.

About this system making sense, I cannot think of another sport where round-robins are handled that way either, but that's because I cannot think of a sport with round-robins that include a number of games at all.


Hi red, Take the Tennis-World-Team-Cup as an example.



      
TuS WhiteTrain
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 25 August 2005 19:03
Hi tjandjahall, thanks for your long answer. I could construct a table with these four players working perfect with stopping after 3 games if the match is decided. But i see that leading to nothing, except that we both may write a book about it Laughing

So i give up, lets have some fun in the cup.

      
*player97287
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 25 August 2005 20:51
WhiteTrain :

Hi red, Take the Tennis-World-Team-Cup as an example.

Well they DO play all their matches. Even if led 2-0, they still play the third match, don't they Wink

I understand you meant the sets. They don't play a third set after winning two, even though won sets and even games may be used to break a tie. It's just ironic that the opposite system is applied for the matches.
      
SKMorefield
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Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 25 August 2005 22:28
I agree with TJ. This way, EVERYTHING good that you do counts or could count for something. So even if you flub up your first 3 games, you could still earn some redemption by winning the last 2 even though you have lost the match.
      
*player39229
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Re:The Nations Cup Fri, 26 August 2005 04:59
WhiteTrain wrote on Fri, 26 August 2005 03:03

I could construct a table with these four players working perfect with stopping after 3 games if the match is decided.

Of course you can, but it is the cases in which each system fails which are telling, not the cases in which they work.

Here are equivalent results for the first two rounds of a first-to-three tournament, assuming that the games won by the loser were won early:

Alison vs Betty: 3-2
Cameron vs David: 1-3

Alison vs Cameron: 1-3
Betty vs David: 1-3

That leaves David winning on two matches and six games, followed by Cameron and Alison tied on one match and four games each, and Betty bringing up the rear on no matches and three games.

Again, for Alison to win the tournament, she would have to beat David. For Cameron to win, he would have to beat Betty and see Alison beat David.

Now, suppose Alison beats David 3-1. That would leave them tied on two matches and seven games each. If David also wins, he will tied with the same result too. To break the deadlock, you would have to examine the number of games each player has lost. Alison has lost 6 games and David 5 games, so David would beat Alison. (And whether Cameron would win overall would depend on his exact result in his last match, against Betty.)

So you certainly can get a result, but some people don't feel terribly comfortable with essentially choosing your tournament winners based on who lost the least badly when they lost. Many would prefer to see the full complement of games played out in each match, so that each match has equal weight and tiebreaks breaks on losses always work out to give the same results as certain equivalent tiebreaks based on wins.

Anyway, Whitetrain, you are right when you say that there are alternatives that also work, and arguably work as well as the one chosen for the Nation's Cup. The problem is, I very much doubt that you can prove them to be better than what has been chosen. If that can't be proven, it all just comes down to opinion, and at that point I think it is really more important that we have a system than that we all agree that it is the best one. We could argue until the cows come home, but we all want the Nation's Cup to happen, so we'd better just use what we've got and see how it goes.

You'll note that I did earlier ask for a change to the tournament rules in this regard. However, the reason I asked for a change was because the round robin was to be run using a best-of-5 system, and the playoffs would be first-to-4, and I thought that whichever system was chosen, it should at least remain the same throughout the tournament.

Quote:

But i see that leading to nothing

I see two benefits. One, I enjoy discussing this sort of thing. That's why I studied it at uni. I'm typing all of this because, for me, it's fun. And two, there's always the possibility of a change for the next tournament. If the system in use this time meets widespread disapproval, we may well change it next time.
      
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