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stenic
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August 2006
Large Games Sun, 03 December 2006 23:32
Played a large game this afternoon. As a friend has the game too we used both the half boards on the reverse of the standard board.

As there are no rules for it we made it up and used a scenario from the book. Basically all terrain features were increase by 1 or 2 tiles depending upon their initial size. Rivers (and Ramparts) were just lengthened and located so that their relative position was the same as in the basic board. Units were then also placed in relative positions - allowing a hex variance to ensure Support could be maintained or quickly regained.

We then gave both sides three extra blue human infantry to locate one in each sector, then we also gave each side an additional human green cavalry to put where they wanted.

We did have 2 players a side but it was more command partnership rather than hierachy as in M44, in effect mucho discussion to come to a joint agreement on what command / lore card to play.

So how did it play ?

Very well in the end. We used a 6 point War Council and the game went very smoothly. A bit longer to engage the enemy but it did mean you had to think carefully to make sure you did not get to far ahead of support and get isolated. Pretty normal tactics really.

Of course set up time took longer, and packing away Smile

From the second box we only used the map board, the single box had enough of what we needed to play with 4 extra units each and loads left over.

Go on, give it a go, you know you want to Smile

Steve P
      
monkeylite
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Posts: 31
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April 2006
Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 00:54
We just had a similar game. My friend just brought his board, I was surprised to find there was plenty in my single box to supply the whole game. We played an 8 point Council including Creatures. We played with the Earth Elemental and the Hill Giant. The Giant was a bit ineffective standing on his stones throwing stuff at the goblins, but the Elemental took out about three units using tremors before being Fireballed.

It all ended a bit madly. I managed to play Assault (the 13 point Warrior lore) then my opponent Counter Attacked with the same thing. Then I used Stolen Orders to get the Counter Attack back, and counter the counter. So it was carnage.

We took a couple of pictures to record the starting positions, but unfortunately they didn't come out too well.

http://www.chumley.co.uk/bl/battle1.jpg

http://www.chumley.co.uk/bl/battle2.jpg
      
UniversalHead
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Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 01:50
Hey monkeylite, do you mind if I feature that first pic on www.battleloremaster.com? First time I've seen an 'epic' setup.

If that's OK with you, let me know what photo credit line you'd like.
      
monkeylite
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April 2006
Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 02:18
Yeah, no problem. Sorry it wasn't a better picture.

No credit req.
      
UniversalHead
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Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 02:31
Many thanks!
      
Barry5
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July 2006
Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 09:02
monkeylite wrote on Sun, 03 December 2006 18:54


It all ended a bit madly. I managed to play Assault (the 13 point Warrior lore) then my opponent Counter Attacked with the same thing. Then I used Stolen Orders to get the Counter Attack back, and counter the counter. So it was carnage.




Should you be allowed to "Counter Attack" "Assault"?

As Assault is a 13 point Lore card not a command card, even although its effect is to act as a command card, I'm tempted to think not. As you've pointed out the effect is to potentially break the game as other command card mechanisms fall into place that allow its effect to be played multiple times.
      
Barry5
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July 2006
Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 09:34
For Epic games depth will have to be addressed differently from in normal games so it will not be easy to accurately port the existing scenarios over.

In C&C Ancients we ofen convert scenarios to four player by doubling up the units. Two hands on each side, one player playing left flank, right and left sections, and left centre the other right flank, right and left sections and right centre. Everything is scaled in proportion including victory conditions. This works well and retains the ballance of the original scenario.

In Epic games of Battlelore this won't work.

1. The geometry is different.

2. There are only three sections.

The first is more important than it may seem. The distance separating two forces is a key scenario feature. Look at how often in M44 forces start within striking distance of each other forcing you to do something with them before your opponent does, often when you might prefer a strategy that avoided action in these areas. Similarly C&C ancients often forces deployment of elephants withing striking distance of light troops so that an effect you might strive to avoid in game terms happens. So C&C systems like you to deploy close so that you cannot simply refuse action in areas where you don't have command cards.

The depth of the board will also provide the oportunity to simulate the arrival of reserves and and provide a challenge to players in keeping their armies together.

To try and balance all this I'm thinking of having competative terrain placement. Probably three pieces at a time. With armies built from cores with additional units added in much the same way as the war council works.Deployment will then be in two zones. The bulk of the army a few hexes appart from its opponent with reserves towards the back of the board.

Still don't know how I'm going to do command in a three section game?

The faster we get the the official rules and scenarios the better!
      
monkeylite
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Posts: 31
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April 2006
Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 10:31
Barry wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 03:02


Should you be allowed to "Counter Attack" "Assault"?

As Assault is a 13 point Lore card not a command card, even although its effect is to act as a command card, I'm tempted to think not. As you've pointed out the effect is to potentially break the game as other command card mechanisms fall into place that allow its effect to be played multiple times.


Don't think we didn't spend at least 10 minutes 'discussing' this.

I agree with what you're saying, and it should probably be a rule. However, coming up in the middle of a game like that, we could only go by what was written on the cards, and I had to reluctantly agree that it should be allowed. Assault says 'All your units are ordered...' Counter Attack says 'Issue the same order...'; there's nothing about Command Cards.

We had a similar thing come up with the Hill Giant and Darken the Skies. It was my view that in the spirit of Creatures not being able to take part in Foot Assault or Mounted Charge, etc, that they also shouldn't take part in Darken the Skies. But the wording in the rules and on the cards suggested that there was nothing to stop them.
      
monkeylite
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April 2006
Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 11:20
unihead wrote on Sun, 03 December 2006 20:31

http://www.battleloremaster.com/

That looks like a great site you've got there, unihead.

I just joined the forum.

[Updated on: Mon, 04 December 2006 11:21]

      
SHwoKing
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Posts: 402
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August 2006
Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 15:55
Barry écrit le Mon, 04 December 2006 09:02

monkeylite wrote on Sun, 03 December 2006 18:54


It all ended a bit madly. I managed to play Assault (the 13 point Warrior lore) then my opponent Counter Attacked with the same thing. Then I used Stolen Orders to get the Counter Attack back, and counter the counter. So it was carnage.




Should you be allowed to "Counter Attack" "Assault"?

As Assault is a 13 point Lore card not a command card, even although its effect is to act as a command card, I'm tempted to think not. As you've pointed out the effect is to potentially break the game as other command card mechanisms fall into place that allow its effect to be played multiple times.


We asked the same question on the french forum and we have an answer from Dow's staff :
You can use "Counter-attack" on "Assault", but don't forget to pay 13 (or 16 without a warrior in war council) to use it.

This means :
monkeylite wrote on Sun, 03 December 2006 18:54


It all ended a bit madly. I managed to play Assault (the 13 point Warrior lore) then my opponent Counter Attacked with the same thing. Then I used Stolen Orders to get the Counter Attack back, and counter the counter. So it was carnage.



The game rules say that the lore token pool is limited to the number of token in it. Once it's empty, no more lore token can be acquired. I have 36 lore tokens in my box and i assume the number is correct.
If you play "Assault", then your opponent play counter-attack, then you play counter-attack as well, it needs at least 39 tokens. At the end of your first turn, you choose to refresh your lore token by taking two lore token, you still need a Lvl 3 Sorcerer with "Magic pentacle" Landmark to gain 3 tokens in total to recast "Assault". Are you sure you've played it the way it has to be ? Cause this kind of thing cannot occur quiet often as there's only one way to do it : you need 23 lore tokens in stock, your opponent needs 13 in stock so no more token in the mana pool first, you need a lvl 3 Sorcerer and "Magic pentacle".

[Updated on: Mon, 04 December 2006 16:04]

      
monkeylite
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Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 16:03
SHwoKing wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 09:55


We asked the same question on the french forum and we have an answer from Dow's staff :
You can use "Counter-attack" on "Assault", but don't forget to pay 13 (or 16 without a warrior in war council) to use it.


Cool. Thanks for that. I think that's a good interpretation for the game. We didn't actually pay any extra lore for our counters.
      
janu
Junior Member

Posts: 10
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October 2006
Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 17:28
Actually, it should be a little bit more relaxed. As you probably can roll many attack dice, you should be able to collect a number of lore tokens during your turn as well, without requiring a mana pool.

But anyway, your lore reserve should be pretty much drained afterwards ;-)
      
skiprydell
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Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 18:42
Monkeylite,
Thanks for posting the big board game pic.

Unihead,
Thanks for posting the pic on your site (GREAT site btw).

I think this aspect of the board really holds some promise for 'something completely different' for future BL development. However, it also creates some verrryyy interesting possibilites for M44 games (I have long wished to see an enlarged board for M44 that would allow more armor maneuvering).

Based on the picture, I just placed my order for a second copy of BL from DoW.

Thomas
      
stenic
Senior Member
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Posts: 136
Registered:
August 2006
Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 20:20
monkeylite wrote on Sun, 03 December 2006 23:54



We took a couple of pictures to record the starting positions, but unfortunately they didn't come out too well.

http://www.chumley.co.uk/bl/battle1.jpg

http://www.chumley.co.uk/bl/battle2.jpg




Nice pics. Of course they highlight the other problem with large battle maps... no space for the memory jog cards !! Smile

Steve P
      
stenic
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Posts: 136
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August 2006
Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 20:30
Barry wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 08:34

For Epic games depth will have to be addressed differently from in normal games so it will not be easy to accurately port the existing scenarios over.

In C&C Ancients we ofen convert scenarios to four player by doubling up the units. Two hands on each side, one player playing left flank, right and left sections, and left centre the other right flank, right and left sections and right centre. Everything is scaled in proportion including victory conditions. This works well and retains the ballance of the original scenario.

In Epic games of Battlelore this won't work.

1. The geometry is different.

2. There are only three sections.

The first is more important than it may seem. The distance separating two forces is a key scenario feature. Look at how often in M44 forces start within striking distance of each other forcing you to do something with them before your opponent does, often when you might prefer a strategy that avoided action in these areas. Similarly C&C ancients often forces deployment of elephants withing striking distance of light troops so that an effect you might strive to avoid in game terms happens. So C&C systems like you to deploy close so that you cannot simply refuse action in areas where you don't have command cards.

The depth of the board will also provide the oportunity to simulate the arrival of reserves and and provide a challenge to players in keeping their armies together.

To try and balance all this I'm thinking of having competative terrain placement. Probably three pieces at a time. With armies built from cores with additional units added in much the same way as the war council works.Deployment will then be in two zones. The bulk of the army a few hexes appart from its opponent with reserves towards the back of the board.

Still don't know how I'm going to do command in a three section game?

The faster we get the the official rules and scenarios the better!


True, but I'm not too worried, the scenarios ported well enough (under our changes) to give a good game. Moreover, we are all assumming the large board is designed for multiplay, it may not be and could just be for very large battles. The standard size board can still be used for very wode 'Overlord' style games once the scenarios are out (or designed by players). Get four boards and you could have truely epic games !!! Very Happy

Balance of course shouldn't be an issue as you just swap sides and play the other side, one game is never enough to get your Battlelore fix !

Steve P
      
stenic
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Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 20:35
monkeylite wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 09:31



Don't think we didn't spend at least 10 minutes 'discussing' this.




10 mins only ? Fair play to you, I'd have been there for ever. Having said that, the answer from the French board of allowing it so long as you have the 13 lore points to spend is a good solution.

Steve P
      
eric
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Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 21:48
Just to be clear:
Whatever was on the French forum was uncorrect (and is being modified to reflect the correct answer). The Counter-Attack command card can only be played to replicate the effect of a Command card, but NOT the effect of a Lore card played in lieu of a Command card (like an Assault).
eric
      
stenic
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Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 22:01
eric wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 20:48

Just to be clear:
Whatever was on the French forum was uncorrect (and is being modified to reflect the correct answer). The Counter-Attack command card can only be played to replicate the effect of a Command card, but NOT the effect of a Lore card played in lieu of a Command card (like an Assault).
eric


Seems clear enough Smile

Working late then Eric ? I do hope thye pay you by the hour Wink

Steve P
      
UniversalHead
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Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 22:38
Hey stenic, how about doing us all a favour and cutting down that huge signature graphic? It's a bit obtrusive.
      
stenic
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Re:Large Games Mon, 04 December 2006 22:43
unihead wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 21:38

Hey stenic, how about doing us all a favour and cutting down that huge signature graphic? It's a bit obtrusive.


Whoops, sorry, hadn't realised it would dominate the posts so much.

Gone now.

Steve P
      
UniversalHead
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Re:Large Games Tue, 05 December 2006 01:20
Thanks mate!
      
Patman13b
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Re:Large Games Tue, 05 December 2006 07:38
It's possible the large games might not be large "battles", but large "adventures". Maybe it would be like a roleplaying game (or a fantasy based RTS game). Your army would move through the board, gaining experience in preparation for the final battle at the other end.

I'm hoping that the "official" large game rules might come as a second board expansion, as it sounds like all the game pieces of the full version are not that necessary.
      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Large Games Tue, 05 December 2006 09:15
Patman13b wrote on Tue, 05 December 2006 07:38

It's possible the large games might not be large "battles", but large "adventures". Maybe it would be like a roleplaying game (or a fantasy based RTS game). Your army would move through the board, gaining experience in preparation for the final battle at the other end.

I'm hoping that the "official" large game rules might come as a second board expansion, as it sounds like all the game pieces of the full version are not that necessary.


That was actually my initial thoughts. That the large map would represent a campaign map where one unit represented a whole army moving around the countryside. A fortress could be a city, a Training camp could be a fort and so on. Separate rules for campaign games and when two armies clashed you played out a battle on a "normal" board instead. Smile

Trying to think outside the box here...

/wolf
      
    
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