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GhostWolf69
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Re:Retreat choice ? Fri, 15 December 2006 08:14
Good, now that's sorted out. Cool

/wolf
      
AK_Aramis
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Re:Retreat choice ? Fri, 15 December 2006 22:10
I'm in the "Must move all available flag-hexes" camp.


The stopping voluntarily is contradicted by the has an available retreat route bit.

Richard's Non Answer was to me a polite way of him saying "You're wrong." Not a "snide remark" but a "you obviously missed something in the rules."

He might also be checking to see how poorly worded the rules actually are, so he can help clean them up.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Retreat choice ? Fri, 15 December 2006 23:44
AK_Aramis wrote on Fri, 15 December 2006 15:10

I'm in the "Must move all available flag-hexes" camp.


The stopping voluntarily is contradicted by the has an available retreat route bit.

Richard's Non Answer was to me a polite way of him saying "You're wrong." Not a "snide remark" but a "you obviously missed something in the rules."

He might also be checking to see how poorly worded the rules actually are, so he can help clean them up.

Perhaps you missed Richard's "real" answer? He came back and stated he didn't mean to be elusive that he felt the rules were clear enough. In essence, each hex of a retreat is considered sepereately. So you may retreat into a dead end and force your unit to lose figures as long as it it not the first hex you retreat into.
      
AK_Aramis
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Re:Retreat choice ? Sat, 16 December 2006 11:16
I missed it.
      
Aristophanes
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Re:Retreat choice ? Sun, 17 December 2006 21:12
RBorg wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 12:52



Which hex the unit moves back onto each retreat move is a separate decision.




This is the critical sentence that is not in the current Player's Guide but should be. If followed literally, a retreating player may deliberately move his unit in such a manner that fulfilling the quota of retreat flags is impossible and therefore he is allowed to make a decision to sacrifice units instead. The sequence of retreats is up to the retreating player, but each hex is a separate decision.

However, the caveat here is that any retreat MUST be of a minimum 1 hex. So this sub-rule only kicks in if there are retreats of multiple hexes be it retreat flags, frightened, etc.

[Updated on: Sun, 17 December 2006 21:19]

      
Cantatta
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Re:Retreat choice ? Mon, 18 December 2006 05:09
Just consider each flag rolled seperately, the rest falls into place after that. You must "retreat one hex for each flag rolled", which is pretty clear, and goes right along with considering each retreat move seperately.

my $.02
      
AK_Aramis
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Re:Retreat choice ? Mon, 18 December 2006 08:37
Actually, Cantata, that phrase leads me to thinking along the must move as many as possible. Without additional text, I'd force opponents to move back one row for each flag, if they can move that far.

Nothing in the rulebook implies to me separation of hex decisions.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Retreat choice ? Mon, 18 December 2006 13:46
AK_Aramis wrote on Mon, 18 December 2006 01:37

Actually, Cantata, that phrase leads me to thinking along the must move as many as possible. Without additional text, I'd force opponents to move back one row for each flag, if they can move that far.

Nothing in the rulebook implies to me separation of hex decisions.

Nothing implies that you must move by rows either. What IS implied in the rules is what Richard confirmed:

1) You must take an open space if there is one available.

2) You have complete choice into which hex you move if there are two open spaces.

3) If your retreat path is blocked, you must lose a figure.

Based on these three points (and don't forget official confirmation!!!), you must move off the hex you occupied if forced to retreat (i.e. you can't choose to lose a figure in the initial retreat instead of retreating in order to be able to battle back or deny your attacker follow-on moves). After that, the choice is up to you. You may move into a dead end and lose figures to follow the remaining flags.

If you assume anything different - such as forcing a unit to retreat by rows instead of hexes, you have violated Rule # 2.
      
SHwoKing
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Re:Retreat choice ? Mon, 18 December 2006 14:19
There's still something in the rule that should'nt be here considering you are retreating hex per hex. I don't have the english rule but in the french, is says something like : "you cannot retreat in nor through an occupied hex or a impassable terrain."

Can someone tell me how can you pass through an occupied hex without being able to go in considering you retreat one hex after another ? It would have been simplier to tell that you cannot retreat in an occupied hex only. This thing is what makes me doubt about this rule.
      
Kenntak2
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Re:Retreat choice ? Mon, 18 December 2006 14:34
SHwoKing wrote on Mon, 18 December 2006 08:19

There's still something in the rule that should'nt be here considering you are retreating hex per hex. I don't have the english rule but in the french, is says something like : "you cannot retreat in nor through an occupied hex or a impassable terrain."

Can someone tell me how can you pass through an occupied hex without being able to go in considering you retreat one hex after another ? It would have been simplier to tell that you cannot retreat in an occupied hex only. This thing is what makes me doubt about this rule.


I do not understand your question, where do you say it stated that you can pass through an occupied or impassable hex? ColtsFan76 summed up the retreat rules pretty well as confirmed by Richard.
      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Retreat choice ? Mon, 18 December 2006 14:43
I continue to beat my tantrum:

*singing* We need an official erraaAAAaataa! And we need it BaaAAAd. *does a little; give-me-an-errata-pdf-download-NOW-goddamit-jig*

... erh... well you get my point. I love the answer from RB and I will play it like he says (of course). No argument. I simply think we should have the "real" rules in print... not the crappy draft I'm reading at the moment.

/wolf
      
SHwoKing
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Re:Retreat choice ? Mon, 18 December 2006 14:45
Kenntak, it wasn't a question, it was just a (poor) translation of the rule P. 26, first point. And a comment.

I didn't say you can pass through, i say you can't pass through.

Then the "question" was : how can you pass through a hex without being able to going in this same hex first? Seems impossible to me.

[Updated on: Mon, 18 December 2006 14:48]

      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Retreat choice ? Mon, 18 December 2006 18:15
SHwoKing wrote on Mon, 18 December 2006 07:45

Kenntak, it wasn't a question, it was just a (poor) translation of the rule P. 26, first point. And a comment.

I didn't say you can pass through, i say you can't pass through.

Then the "question" was : how can you pass through a hex without being able to going in this same hex first? Seems impossible to me.

Possibly it was put therre for two reassons - 1) people might assume that if they have two flags but a blcoker immediately behind them, that they could "jump" to the second hex.

2) In Ancients, which is the closest to BattleLore in this system, there are provisions for light units to move through other units. One would be leaders, the other would be a card that allows green foot units to move through. There may be more, i can't recall right now.

Sometimes they restate the obvious to make things crystal clear. The other times, they just let us fight it out to upset Ghost Wolf.

[Updated on: Mon, 18 December 2006 18:15]

      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Retreat choice ? Mon, 18 December 2006 18:24
GhostWolf69 wrote on Mon, 18 December 2006 07:43

I simply think we should have the "real" rules in print... not the crappy draft I'm reading at the moment.

Yes, yes, we understand your position. maybe the rules can be cleared up here and there to stop the distractions. But a lot of this is simply FAQ things. I see that you have been a member for a lot longer than me but I don't recall seeing you around much. So maybe you came in when Memoir was first released and maybe you didn't. But Memoir has 2 FAQ pages already, a reprint of one card (Behind Enemy Lines), and a reference card that is the opposite of what it should be (Bridges DON'T block LOS now). We never got a reprint of the rules (to my knowledge). So Memoir was far from perfect out of the box.

I wouldn't hold your breath on a reprint of the BattleLore one either. I haven't seen anything that is errata yet just some minor clarifications that an FAQ could handle. I still don't understand the gripe about the Bold and frightened - seems pretty straightforward. These retreat rules are also clear with the answer from Richard. They could have been worded better but nothing he says contradicts what is written - so again, no error there. You can't expect a rulebook to cover every conceiveble situation And you can't expect for every topic to be covered under every section. Frightened is handled under Goblins because Goblins are the only permanently firghtened units in the game so far. There is clear instructions from the retreat rules to turn to that section to read about frightened units.

We already have an 80-page rule book. I really don't want anything larger than that. It just takes some common sense and a little nudge from an FAQ to get there.
      
SHwoKing
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Re:Retreat choice ? Mon, 18 December 2006 18:27
for the 1) you stated, if the rulles was clear that you treat retreat hex by hex, saying "you can't retreat in a occupied hex" would have been enough. That's what i say.

So maybe it was written for the 2) i dunno

But that doesn't matter now, cause we have our answer, it was just to point that the rules in the book are not crystal clear for retreat.

[Updated on: Mon, 18 December 2006 18:27]

      
Cantatta
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Re:Retreat choice ? Mon, 18 December 2006 19:28
Quote:

Actually, Cantata, that phrase leads me to thinking along the must move as many as possible. Without additional text, I'd force opponents to move back one row for each flag, if they can move that far.



Using the example given above, if I can consider each flag rolled one at a time, then it is simple. I take the first flag and I decide which one hex I want my unit to move to, dealing with the consequences of that one move immediately. I then take the second flag, and decide which one hex to move to, and deal with those consequences immediately. My first retreat decision is not reliant on my second retreat decision, and vice-a-versa, no matter what the consequences of each seperate decision turn out to be. The wording I gave simply enforces this thinking by saying that one flag forces one retreat move. Rolling more than one flag does not alter this wording, each flag still forces only one retreat move.

I don't think the rule is ambiguous at all, personally. If you read exactly what is there, without assuming anything else, it is clear, IMHO. I have been playing the C&C games for several years, so maybe these things are less confusing for me by now.
      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Retreat choice ? Mon, 18 December 2006 21:10
ColtsFan76 wrote on Mon, 18 December 2006 18:24

GhostWolf69 wrote on Mon, 18 December 2006 07:43

I simply think we should have the "real" rules in print... not the crappy draft I'm reading at the moment.

Yes, yes, we understand your position. maybe the rules can be cleared up here and there to stop the distractions. But a lot of this is simply FAQ things. I see that you have been a member for a lot longer than me but I don't recall seeing you around much. So maybe you came in when Memoir was first released and maybe you didn't. But Memoir has 2 FAQ pages already, a reprint of one card (Behind Enemy Lines), and a reference card that is the opposite of what it should be (Bridges DON'T block LOS now). We never got a reprint of the rules (to my knowledge). So Memoir was far from perfect out of the box.

I wouldn't hold your breath on a reprint of the BattleLore one either. I haven't seen anything that is errata yet just some minor clarifications that an FAQ could handle. I still don't understand the gripe about the Bold and frightened - seems pretty straightforward. These retreat rules are also clear with the answer from Richard. They could have been worded better but nothing he says contradicts what is written - so again, no error there. You can't expect a rulebook to cover every conceiveble situation And you can't expect for every topic to be covered under every section. Frightened is handled under Goblins because Goblins are the only permanently firghtened units in the game so far. There is clear instructions from the retreat rules to turn to that section to read about frightened units.

We already have an 80-page rule book. I really don't want anything larger than that. It just takes some common sense and a little nudge from an FAQ to get there.


Agree with what you are saying. A simple pdf-errata or/and faq would suffice, so that I can print it out and reffer to it when we play in our tournaments next Easter. If not, I think we're in trouble... I'm gonna have to write my own and send out to our participants. So let's hope for that.

/wolf
      
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