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Johnny Awesome
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Disengaging from Melee Fri, 29 December 2006 18:07
I realize that Archers in melee have to melee and can't fire on other targets, but what about melee engagements in general? Can you disengage units that are in melee or do ordered units have to battle an adjacent unit if they are already engaged?

We've been playing that you have to remain engaged until you either destroy or retreat the opposing unit(s). Is this the correct way?
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Disengaging from Melee Fri, 29 December 2006 18:39
Each combat is unique. So for example, if you have two enemy units adjacent to you and you choose to attacka red one this turn and do not destroy them, you may attack the green unit the next turn.

You always have free choice as to who to attack each turn as long as you follow the rule that you must attack an adjacent unit before you attack a ranged unit.

Even when you have the opportunity for follow-on actions, you are not required to attack the same unit twice as long as there is another viable option.
      
warwell
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Re:Disengaging from Melee Fri, 29 December 2006 18:47
Furthermore, you do NOT have to battle a unit if you are adjacent. You may choose not to battle, or even to move away.
      
Echowing
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Re:Disengaging from Melee Sun, 07 January 2007 21:20
warwell wrote on Fri, 29 December 2006 12:47

Furthermore, you do NOT have to battle a unit if you are adjacent. You may choose not to battle, or even to move away.


I'm not so sure of that. The rules don't specifically say you may choose to move away from a combat. If they also didn't specifically say you couldn't move away then I wouldn't worry. However, on pg.12, in the left example, the caption reads:

"The English player orders his remaining Archer units across the board. Here one of these Archer units cannot be ordered, because it is already in contact with the enemy."

Which seems to suggest that opposing figures that are base to base do have entanglement issues. I hope that DoW will clarify this (or if they have already could someone please post a link) because the example causes more confusion than clarity.

The exact wording seems to suggest that units that are base to base cannot be issued an order at all which would indicate that they couldn't attack in subsequent turns unless they were forced to retreat. I doubt anyone plays this way because that seems absurd.

Could the effect only apply to ranged units? Certainly, historically, bows lost their ranged ability and had to be used as staves more than anything else in close combat when infantry closed with them. But we know in this game the get to use a Point Blank attack that is qualified as a Melee attack (so they can battle back). So this can't be true either.

Instead does it mean that this unit cannot move away from combat without a retreat flag?

To make matters more complicated, the command card: "Darken the sky" which basically allows ranged units that aren't at point blank range, to fire twice but not move, may answer one question- basically the archers that are at point blank may not attack and the command card doesn't allow them to move either. This may be why this particular unit cannot be ordered, but what about a more general case. The book really should have provided a few more examples to clarify whether there are entanglement issues with movement or not.

This example really needs to be clarified.

[Updated on: Sun, 07 January 2007 21:28]

      
Kenntak2
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Re:Disengaging from Melee Sun, 07 January 2007 21:44
I think the rules are clear that a unit may freely move away from another unit. I have Memoir '44 and Commands and Colors: Ancients and the rule is the same. No offense, but this is a pretty fundamental rule.
      
shryke
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August 2006
Re:Disengaging from Melee Sun, 07 January 2007 21:46
Echowing wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 15:20

warwell wrote on Fri, 29 December 2006 12:47

Furthermore, you do NOT have to battle a unit if you are adjacent. You may choose not to battle, or even to move away.


I'm not so sure of that. The rules don't specifically say you may choose to move away from a combat. If they also didn't specifically say you couldn't move away then I wouldn't worry. However, on pg.12, in the left example, the caption reads:

"The English player orders his remaining Archer units across the board. Here one of these Archer units cannot be ordered, because it is already in contact with the enemy."

Which seems to suggest that opposing figures that are base to base do have entanglement issues. I hope that DoW will clarify this (or if they have already could someone please post a link) because the example causes more confusion than clarity.

The exact wording seems to suggest that units that are base to base cannot be issued an order at all which would indicate that they couldn't attack in subsequent turns unless they were forced to retreat. I doubt anyone plays this way because that seems absurd.

Could the effect only apply to ranged units? Certainly, historically, bows lost their ranged ability and had to be used as staves more than anything else in close combat when infantry closed with them. But we know in this game the get to use a Point Blank attack that is qualified as a Melee attack (so they can battle back). So this can't be true either.

Instead does it mean that this unit cannot move away from combat without a retreat flag?

To make matters more complicated, the command card: "Darken the sky" which basically allows ranged units that aren't at point blank range, to fire twice but not move, may answer one question- basically the archers that are at point blank may not attack and the command card doesn't allow them to move either. This may be why this particular unit cannot be ordered, but what about a more general case. The book really should have provided a few more examples to clarify whether there are entanglement issues with movement or not.

This example really needs to be clarified.


No, it's actually perfectly clear. The important part your missing is that in that example, the card being played is "Darken The Skies". This card ONLY allows ranged units to be ordered for the purpose of ranged attacks. Since the archer in question is next to an enemy unit, it can't engage in ranged fire and therefore cannot be ordered.

As to the whole "can a unit next to another units be ordered and moved" it's really simple.

Does it say this anywhere in the rules? NO.
Is it a rule then? NO.

[Updated on: Sun, 07 January 2007 21:50]

      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Disengaging from Melee Sun, 07 January 2007 22:16
Echowing wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 14:20

warwell wrote on Fri, 29 December 2006 12:47

Furthermore, you do NOT have to battle a unit if you are adjacent. You may choose not to battle, or even to move away.


I'm not so sure of that. The rules don't specifically say you may choose to move away from a combat. If they also didn't specifically say you couldn't move away then I wouldn't worry. However, on pg.12, in the left example, the caption reads:

This is in reference *only* to the card in question - Darken the Sky. In this case, only range fire can occur. Since the unit in question is adjacent to an enemy, it can only melee. Therefore, it does not qualify for the orders avaialble.

As mentioned above, units move freely in all other C&C games. They move freely here in BattleLore as well. The rule of thumb in C&C is to keep it simple. So if it does *not* say that you can't do something, then don't try to complicate it by saying you can't do something because it doesn't explicitly say that you can. If they wanted you to remain engaged, then it would say you had to.

If you couldn't move once you engaged, the game would bog down to bloody stagnated messes in the middle of the field. You could never manuever your troops, never retreat, and the fleixibility of the card driven system would collapse. The tactics would change to pure ranged attacks or using a weak unit to "stick" an opposing unit from moving.
      
AK_Aramis
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Re:Disengaging from Melee Mon, 08 January 2007 01:17
In both M44 and BL, your choice of target is limited when you are in base to base contact AFTER movement. Any ordered unit may move during movement.
      
Kenntak2
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Re:Disengaging from Melee Mon, 08 January 2007 16:57
I think one problem some people are having is that they are taking concepts from other games and assuming they apply in BattleLore. I was guilty of this when I first started playing Commands and Colors. I assumed you had to conduct ranged combat before melee combat which of course is not the case.
      
Johnny Awesome
Junior Member

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October 2006
Re:Disengaging from Melee Tue, 09 January 2007 04:53
Thanks for the clarifications guys. The game plays alot smoother now.
      
eric
-= Crew =-
Advanced Combat Training

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October 2002
Re:Disengaging from Melee Tue, 09 January 2007 05:53
Yes, it must have been one tough slogging without that. Very Happy
eric
      
    
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