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erps
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NC Board: Question Schedule for KO / Team choosing Mon, 03 December 2007 13:54
Hi

This should be the discussion thread for the question:

Choosing of the QF/SF opponent from the number ones of the groups or predefined schedule?

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 03 December 2007 13:54]

      
erps
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Re:NC Board: Question Schedule for KO / Team choosing Mon, 03 December 2007 17:50
Hi

Okay, for starting:

I prefer the method used in soccer world cup with a predefined schedule (e.g. for QF #1 plays #4 of other group, and #2 plays #3 and vice versa).

Advantages:

* elimination of a time consuming event
* no "unfair" choosing of the number 2 in the other group because #1 is afraid of another team
* favorite teams with a bad round robin get what they deserve in KO
* works for ALL systems well (2, 3 or more groups).

I will give no disadvantages or advantages for the other method because i don't see any Wink

The best would be anyway to have always an even number of groups. Odd group numbers have always the problem of finding a "best" 2nd or 3rd place between the groups. Mostly the tie breaker systems used are not really fair.

I also prefer a second round robin instead of a QF/SF.
And in the beginning the highest ranked teams choose the groups.

Example:

16 teams (like this year). There is a ranking based on US and 2 player. We have 4 groups. The 4 highest ranked teams choose the remaining teams for their group (in order of their ranking 3 times). This should lead to balanced groups and is consuming one day (or two days) at the beginning of NC.

First round robin with 3 matches each.

The two best teams of each group advance to the next RR.

2 groups with 4 teams: Group I has A1, B2, C2, D1; Group II has A2, B1, C1, D2

Winners of both groups play final. Maybe a semifinal is played between I-1/II-2 and I-2/II-1 before.

weeks: 3 for RR1, 3 for RR2, max 2 for KO


Disadvantage: Only 3 matches for half the teams. Works better with 20 or 24 teams (5/6 per group in first RR, all other remains).

bye, erps







      
Zeno
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Re:NC Board: Question Schedule for KO / Team choosing Mon, 03 December 2007 18:42
More to ponder. I see some problems with seeding the playoffs, and more needs to be said (unless we go with a second round robin). Below are some examples of seeding schemes.

two groups

Current: Bc is chosen by A1, B2* is the highest in B other than B1 and Bc.
[(A1 v Bc)v(B2* v A3*)]v[(B1 v Ac)v(B2* v A3*)]

Seeded:
[(A1 v B4)v(B2 v A3)] v [(B1 v A4)v(A2 v B3)]

Reseeded:
((A1 v B4),(B2 v A3),(B1 v A4),(A2 v B3)
if 2 from each group then Ai v Bii and Aii v Bi
If 3 from one group then Ai v B and Aii v Aiii
(better?) If 3 from one group then top v bottom and middles. If tie for top (eg A1, A2, A3, B1) then top and bottom from same group meet (or top and bottom from different groups meet).

Three groups:

Currently a reseeded scheme, needs some more explanation.

Seeded:
Assume A3 is the worst third place team and that B1 is better than C1.
[(A1 v B3)v(B2 v C2)]v[(B1 v C3)v(C1 v A2)]

alternatively:
Assume A3 is the best of the third place teams and that B1 is better than C1. Instead of eliminating a 3rd place team have the top team from the same group as the best 3rd place team play against the winner of the clash between the other 3rd place teams
[(A1 v {B3 v C3})v(B2 v C2)]v[(C1 v A2)v(B1 v A3)]

Four groups:

Current: not sure.

Seeded: Do we want 8, 12 or 16 teams in the playoffs?
8:[(A1vB2)v(C1vD2)]v[(B1vA2)v(D1vC2)]
12: [(A1v{C2vB3})v(B1v{D2vA3}]v[(C1v{A2vD3})v(D1v{B2vC3})]
16: [({A1vB4}v{C2vD3})v({B1vA4}v{C3vD2}))v(({C1vD4}v{A2vB3})v({D 1vC4}v{B2vA3})].
      
dea1
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Re:NC Board: Question Schedule for KO / Team choosing Tue, 04 December 2007 00:29
I think that's too many topics in one ...

The best movement depends on the number of teams - and it's too hard to have pre-determined rules for all possible numbers.
Let's see how many teams we have - then the TD shall state a movement (or the captains board shall decide - whatever you prefer).


Some general remarks:

A fair tiebreaker in round robins would be
a) the result of the direct clash (if only two teams are tied)
b) matches and thereafter games won - but only if all 5 (in bo5) games are played

Round robins are good, but only with more than 4 teams. In a RR of 4 you have 2 common problems:
a) 3-way-tie (1 team loses all, others win 2 each - or 1 team wins all, others 1 each)
b) last clash offers the possibility to 'help opponent' (in case you have won 2 and know that it's sufficient for next round)

If there is a choice between '#1 may choose' or 'predetermined seeding', I prefer '#1 may choose' because
a) there is more incentive to become #1
b) there is less incentive to lose the last clash on purpose in order to get the opp you prefer
c) there is less incentive to play your last clash at the last minute (because you want to know the results of the other group)
d) it's more interesting (it need not be time consuming at all - teams can discuss whom they would choose in advance and then submit their choice as soon as the last results are known)

some possible movements:
16 (15) teams:
keep what we had in the last 2 years
10 weeks (7 RR, QF, SF, F)

18 (17) teams:
RR in 3 groups of 6 - best 2 advance
RR in 1 group of 6 - best 2 play final
Final
11 weeks

Will there be more teams?
Let's discuss that, if they are there.
      
psteinx
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Re:NC Board: Question Schedule for KO / Team choosing Tue, 04 December 2007 01:34
We should be clear in the rules that if the tiebreaker falls to games, it is based on games won percentage (as a percentage of total games played), not simply games won.

Imagine that two teams (in an artificially short tourney) have these records

Team A
Match 1: 3-2
Match 2: 3-2
Match 3: 3-2
Match 4: 1-3
Match 5: 0-3

Team B
Match 1: 3-0
Match 2: 3-0
Match 3: 3-0
Match 4: 0-3
Match 5: 0-3

Team A has won more games (10), but has also lost 6 more times. Team A has a win percentage of (10/22 = 45%) whereas team B has a win percentage of (9/15 = 60%). Clearly (IMO) team B should win the tiebreaker. This should be clear in the rules.
      
RFAD - Saint-Emilion
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Re:NC Board: Question Schedule for KO / Team choosing Tue, 04 December 2007 11:40
why not play ALL the 5 game ? in the first NC it's in the rule and they are no problem for tiebreak Wink
      
OLE Masimo
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Re:NC Board: Question Schedule for KO / Team choosing Tue, 04 December 2007 18:22
Hi all
I think we get carried away. A lot of further questions are adressed already (i.e. the tiebreaker question - or the question of a second RR .....)

I think we should either focus on the initial question (Choosing of the QF/SF opponent from the number ones of the groups or predefined schedule?) first - or maybee we should discuss the other points first?

Just a side remark - if we decide to have a predefined scedule - we don`t really have to go with "best #1s etc". In sports they do not do that either. We could distribute the teams to groups A B C etc. and then follow a set up scedule like in WC ? Maybee easier and less conflict oriented?


I think it would be better to focus first on the point that it is very likely that we get more than 16 teams in next years NC. Depending on how we solve that the other points get a different importance. (i.e. - if it should be decided to play RR in 4 groups (or even more Cool)then I definitely think a predefined scedule for KO-round is better.


How do we handle 17/18 ... teams? - this is extracted from the original rules:


17-24: Round robin, 3 groups, with QF, SF and F. Best 2 numbers 3 qualify too, on the basis of scores against rest of top-5 (17), top-6 (18-22), top-7 (23), top-8 (24), respectively. In QF, best #1s play against #3s (classification: different group), other #1 plays against worst #2. In SF, classification = different group. In the case that #1, 2, and 3 of same group qualify for SF, #1 and #3 play against eachother.
17: (1,6,7,12,13), (2,5,8,11,14,17) and (3,4,9,10,15,16), 9 weeks
18: (1,6,7,12,13,18), (2,5,8,11,14,17) and (3,4,9,10,15,16), 9 weeks
19: (1,6,7,12,13,18), (2,5,8,11,14,17) and (3,4,9,10,15,16,19), 11 weeks
20: (1,6,7,12,13,18), (2,5,8,11,14,17) and (3,4,9,10,15,16,19,20), 11 weeks
21: (1,6,7,12,13,18), (2,5,8,11,14,17,19) and (3,4,9,10,15,16,20,21), 11 weeks
22: (1,6,7,12,13,18), (2,5,8,11,14,17,19,22) and (3,4,9,10,15,16,20,21), 11 weeks
23: (1,6,7,12,13,18,19), (2,5,8,11,14,17,20,23) and (3,4,9,10,15,16,21,22), 11 weeks
24: (1,6,7,12,13,18,19,24), (2,5,8,11,14,17,20,23) and (3,4,9,10,15,16,21,22), 11 weeks


do we keep this or is there any suggestion on a different scedule? Am I allone or do you others expect more than 16 teams too? - How many teams do you think can get together? I believe we get at least two more teams.

      
dea1
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Re:NC Board: Question Schedule for KO / Team choosing Tue, 04 December 2007 21:25
Masimo schrieb am Tue, 04 December 2007 18:22


How do we handle 17/18 ... teams?

See my suggestion above ...

I don't believe we'll have more than that.
But let's give 20 (19) a try:
RR in 4 groups of 5 (5 weeks with one bye)
best 3 advance
RR in 2 groups of 6 (5 weeks)
best 2 play SF and final
12 weeks altogether with 1 bye
      
dea1
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Re:NC Board: Question Schedule for KO / Team choosing Tue, 04 December 2007 21:58
alternate solution for 20(19) teams (copyright tewe):

RR in 2 groups of 10
SF, Final (who needs QF?)
Probably better, more matches for all participants, winning your matches in RR is more important as only 2 advance.
      
psteinx
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Re:NC Board: Question Schedule for KO / Team choosing Wed, 05 December 2007 00:27
I don't like 10 team groups at all.

Much too long.

Towards the end, many teams would be mathematically eliminated. It would be very dreary to have two teams that are both mathematically eliminated playing each other.
      
Knave
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Re:NC Board: Question Schedule for KO / Team choosing Wed, 05 December 2007 00:55
Well, speaking from the perspective of a team that got eliminated rather rapidly in the NC, I was still very keen on avoiding last place...
      
Zeno
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Re:NC Board: Question Schedule for KO / Team choosing Wed, 05 December 2007 17:50
Hi, thought I'd try a poll involving some of the questions. Nothing binding, just impressions.

1. Should we allow the winners of the group to choose their opponent?

This looks tough if we have more than three groups. If there is a weak team that gets through in group A, then the winners of groups B and C would both try to choose that team. This can be handled if we really wanted to by saying that the winner of group A must choose from group B (B from C and C from A). But frankly I don't see the need. I would prefer a predefined setup even if we had only two groups.

2. Which of the following do you prefer?

  • Single round robin, then playoffs
  • Initial round robin, then second round robin, then playoffs

Slight preference for the former. Having a second round robin will shift the schedule and will add an off week

3. How many teams should make the playoffs if there is a single round robin with three groups?

  • 8, top two plus two best number threes.
  • 9, top three, with worst number threes meeting in a play-in match.
  • 12, top four in each group, with the top teams receiving byes in the first round.

12 seems to be too many. I have a slight preference for 9 over 8.

4. How many teams should make the playoffs if there is a second round robin with one group?

  • 2
  • 4

Given the time constraints, I assume just a final match, so 2 teams.

5. How many teams should make the playoffs if there is a second round robin with two group2?

  • 2
  • 4
  • 8

I would rate 2 as worst, and 4 as much better than 8.

6. Should we keep bassie's avoidance of odd number groups? Note that with 20 we have 6-6-8 and with 22 we have 6-8-8.

Nope, can't see any reason for it myself.
      
    
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