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Airborne16
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Skill points Wed, 25 July 2012 19:27
Has this been discussed before? I played against a general with much higher skill, won one match 6 to 1, lost the other 6 to 5, and barely made any points. Now I lose two matches against a similar major, and they were close matches... and I lose 36 points. Baffles me their logic. I know there's a formula, but it makes little sense to me.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Skill points Wed, 25 July 2012 20:50
Airborne16 wrote on Wed, 25 July 2012 21:27

Has this been discussed before? I played against a general with much higher skill, won one match 6 to 1, lost the other 6 to 5, and barely made any points. Now I lose two matches against a similar major, and they were close matches... and I lose 36 points. Baffles me their logic. I know there's a formula, but it makes little sense to me.


Yes, this has been discussed many time before and there are a lot of players who don't care for the Point system very much. I'm sure that you can find some of the threads where this was talked about...

Just type "Points" after clicking on the little search icon and you'll get your fill of the conversations. Make sure to select the Memoir '44 Online forum or you might have to wade through all of the Ticket to Ride point topics as well! Cool
      
Nygaard
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Re:Skill points Wed, 25 July 2012 22:38
Mostly you the Skill points aren't related to rank in any way. A General will almost always be a good player (since he's had to win very difficult combinations) but sometimes he's got next to no Skill points because he's tried to win some hard scenarios or something.
You get point for beating other players with higher skill than you, not rank.
      
Phread
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Re:Skill points Wed, 25 July 2012 22:41
The points system can be very frustrating.

It does not take into account your luck - good or bad - when assigning points.

If you lose rolling 38% hits on infantry while your opponent rolls 76% are you less skilled or more unlucky?

My 2 cents worth.

The points scoring system should or could discount the winner's points if they roll much better than average as luck will have contributed to their victory.

Similarly a winner should score more points if they win with much less than average hit rates as they will have won despite bad luck.
      
Airborne16
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Re:Skill points Wed, 25 July 2012 23:35
It does not take into account your luck - good or bad - when assigning points.

If you lose rolling 38% hits on infantry while your opponent rolls 76% are you less skilled or more unlucky?

My 2 cents worth.

The points scoring system should or could discount the winner's points if they roll much better than average as luck will have contributed to their victory.

Similarly a winner should score more points if they win with much less than average hit rates as they will have won despite bad luck.
[/quote]

This kind of how I was thinking. Then put in something regarding number of dice, because this usually defines luck with the cards. I've had battles when I have 20 dice and my opponent has in the 50's. How can your 'skill rating' be based on that?

Thanks for all the replies!
      
Nygaard
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Re:Skill points Thu, 26 July 2012 00:34
Airborne16 wrote on Wed, 25 July 2012 23:35

(snip)

This kind of how I was thinking. Then put in something regarding number of dice, because this usually defines luck with the cards. I've had battles when I have 20 dice and my opponent has in the 50's. How can your 'skill rating' be based on that?

Thanks for all the replies!


Phread has some good points, however...

If you have more dice than your opponent that's usually a sign of good card management. As for the hit-percentage, that's luck - but also only to a point. If you constantly manage to maneuver your opponent into a situation where he can't retreat, you'll get a higher hit rate.
      
Phread
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Re:Skill points Thu, 26 July 2012 01:44
Magnus sometimes you cannot manouver your opponent anywhere.

You have 6 cards, they have 4, they roll twice as many shots hitting twice as much - a four times advantage. In this case you lose. No ifs no buts no maybe you lose. It doesn't matter how skilled you are you lose.

Surprisingly this often happens to me.
This morning playing solo as Allies at Juno Beach I rolled 29% hit rate vs the AI's 58%. The AI beat me. Did I play badly? No, I just didn't get to play.

The scoring system must be modified to account for good or bad luck.
      
Clexton27
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Re:Skill points Thu, 26 July 2012 01:55
IMHO
In a game where chance has a considerable influence on the final outcome it is difficult to measure any level of particular skill.

So the DOW skill figure is not an indicator of anything but the ability of those who know how to game it to be skilled in that aspect.

So the skill number is actually a measure of ability to gain skill points not necessarily be expert players in the overall aspects of Memoir '44. Those with the highest skill points are the best skill points gamers. Since I am in this group I attest to this belief.

Does it help to be a decent player to be a skill points gamer. Yes, it is a necessary talent, but gaming the skill points is just a side game to the more fun game of Memoir '44.

In reality it doesn't mean anything. It is just a way for skill point gamers to compete against each other.

Laughing Rolling Eyes

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 26 July 2012 01:59]

      
Flemish_Havy
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Re:Skill points Thu, 26 July 2012 02:17
Phread wrote on Thu, 26 July 2012 01:44

Magnus sometimes you cannot manouver your opponent anywhere.

You have 6 cards, they have 4, they roll twice as many shots hitting twice as much - a four times advantage. In this case you lose. No ifs no buts no maybe you lose. It doesn't matter how skilled you are you lose.

Surprisingly this often happens to me.
This morning playing solo as Allies at Juno Beach I rolled 29% hit rate vs the AI's 58%. The AI beat me. Did I play badly? No, I just didn't get to play.

The scoring system must be modified to account for good or bad luck.


The AI robot is a wonderfull dice wizard if you ask me !

He tends to score very high fragrates alot !

Regarding the points system, it has bin discussed so much already.

For me the main thing that should change is that people who do not do the rematch, should get awarded only half the points (and the opponent looses them visa versa then) and if they loose on the 'best side', loose double points if they leave !

Nothing is so frustrating as an opponent who promises you a match, but leaves after 1 game only !

In the true spirit off Memoir, a match is a 2 game play, combining the scores off both to determine the winner !
Maybe it should award a bonus for people who play like this !

Awarding points like that, would also get ride off highscoring toprankers who only play 1 game at the best odded side.

The rankingsystem would turn around pretty fast and the top rankers would shurely be the best alround players, as it should be !

As mentioned before, like the points system works now, i couldnt care less !

I play my beloved Memoir in matches, against any opponent and to have FUN, regardless if the dice or cards turn against me.
Shure it is always more fun to win and have the dice work your way, but on the other hand, things doesnt always go like planned in real warfare neighter !
It is up to you to take on the challenge to addapt, whatever happens and play the best game you can with what you get or is trown against you !

I challenge anyone to come and play with me and have fun doing so !
Cya guys ingame ! Very Happy

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 26 July 2012 02:24]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Skill points Thu, 26 July 2012 07:06
Like I said, this has been discussed before...but as we can all see, it is still a favorite topic of conversation with some passion behind it! Smile

Personally I don't pay much attention to the points system (though I haven't had enough time to play online for a while) Sad

Just have fun with the game!
      
Jeronimon
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Re:Skill points Thu, 26 July 2012 08:07
Flemish_Havy wrote on Thu, 26 July 2012 02:17

...Sure it is always more fun to win and have the dice work your way...

I have to disagree here, yesterday I played Operation Cobra (aniversary Wink ) against sdnative and won big twice, with huge dicenumbers and diceluck, 5-1 5-1 the score.

After that we played the meatgrinder and I lost twice, 5-7, 6-7. Guess which matches were more fun and more exciting.
Cool


An easy win does not float my boat. Hard struggle, thinking about strategy, managing the cards, pruning my hand, surprising my opponent, etc does!

That hard won 6-7 loss as axis on the meatgrinder is worth 10 easy wins on Cobra. Smile
      
clorofila
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Re:Skill points Thu, 26 July 2012 09:59
stevens wrote on Thu, 26 July 2012 00:55

IMHO
In a game where chance has a considerable influence on the final outcome it is difficult to measure any level of particular skill.


This is the essential to me about this game, and in my very humble and not harsh-intended opinion, those who don't realize it and accept it, do not get to fully understand Memoir44.
Luck as a HUGE effect in individual games; in the long run, however, you can try to determine the good players by their win percentages (overall or, especially, in hard maps playing the underdog) - but always considering a priori the opponents they play with and the variety of maps, as that can also skew the results.

I keep repeating myself: check Nygaard's win percentage as axis at Arnhem Bridge. It's just an example, there are many others.
      
Flemish_Havy
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Re:Skill points Thu, 26 July 2012 11:26
Jeronimon wrote on Thu, 26 July 2012 08:07


An easy win does not float my boat. Hard struggle, thinking about strategy, managing the cards, pruning my hand, surprising my opponent, etc does!



I do reconcider that one fraze if you look at it seperately.

It is shurely more rewarding to have a hard struggle for a win (or even a loss where you went in against the odds and come out close !
Luckely i can count lots off 'epic' battles on my list ! Very Happy


      
stevie02
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Re:Skill points Thu, 26 July 2012 12:38
The scoring system has wore me down. I have not played for over a month now, and ain't missing it one bit.

Also it's about time we had a new official senario or two, as it's getting a bit stale. There I said it but it needed saying.

Stevie
      
Clexton27
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Re:Skill points Thu, 26 July 2012 12:49
The only way to measure skill equally would be to have ALL players play the same games from the same sides with the same cards and getting the same average dice rolls.

None of these things are even possible in the inherent design of memoir '44 Online and in the way people play, so no true determinant of skill.

Play in Tournaments and you will have a better CHANCE of the more skilled player finishing at the top. But always remember LUCK is still lurking around the corner.

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/215/7/6/Lurking_Around_the_Corner_by_MatthewtheBryan.jpg
In this case "Lady Luck".
      
clorofila
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Re:Skill points Fri, 27 July 2012 01:50
Lady Luck! Good memories!...

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTJo9mj9PIuLDvTQtSX3qiOu0bwzmdNskNxsPGUMeC2tLiL89h6
      
silenttimo
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Re:Skill points Fri, 27 July 2012 16:25
Role player or roll player ?

Definitely, with M44, it's strategical roll playing... Twisted Evil
      
hdescavernes
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Re:Skill points Sat, 28 July 2012 10:52
Skill points ?

OSEF (french for I don't give a rat's buttocks)

[Mis à jour le: Sat, 28 July 2012 10:53]

      
tank commander
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Re:Skill points Sat, 28 July 2012 13:38
"Lady Luck" in the picture above looks a lot like Kristy McNichol.
      
sdnative
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Re:Skill points Mon, 30 July 2012 03:29
Jeronimon wrote on Wed, 25 July 2012 23:07

Flemish_Havy wrote on Thu, 26 July 2012 02:17

...Sure it is always more fun to win and have the dice work your way...

I have to disagree here, yesterday I played Operation Cobra (aniversary Wink ) against sdnative and won big twice, with huge dicenumbers and diceluck, 5-1 5-1 the score.

After that we played the meatgrinder and I lost twice, 5-7, 6-7. Guess which matches were more fun and more exciting.
Cool


An easy win does not float my boat. Hard struggle, thinking about strategy, managing the cards, pruning my hand, surprising my opponent, etc does!

That hard won 6-7 loss as axis on the meatgrinder is worth 10 easy wins on Cobra. Smile


I agree the last 2 games we played were very challenging and nail biters until the end.
Well played comrade.
Smile
      
sdnative
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  Re:Skill points Mon, 30 July 2012 03:31
stevie02 wrote on Thu, 26 July 2012 03:38

The scoring system has wore me down. I have not played for over a month now, and ain't missing it one bit.

Also it's about time we had a new official senario or two, as it's getting a bit stale. There I said it but it needed saying.

Stevie


Ditto...

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 30 July 2012 03:31]

      
Phread
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Re:Skill points Fri, 24 August 2012 11:39
You can even win a match well and still lose points Mad Mad Mad

I just played a match and rematch at Juno Beach.
My opponent had more points than me before we played.

As Allies I won 6-2 (20-9 figures) and I lost as Axis 4-6 (21-19) so winning the match 10-8 (41-28)

After the match and rematch I had lost points. Absolutely crazy.

I can understand this when you start with more points - but winning the match overall and loosing points in just nonsense when your opponent had more at the start.

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 24 August 2012 11:41]

      
Quit2
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Re:Skill points Fri, 24 August 2012 12:20
Mark, that's because you won the first game. That brought your point total over his, and then you lost the second, for which you were more highly ranked than him, so you lost more.

Example:
Before game 1
You 1700, opponent 1702
you win game one with 4 medals difference
You climb to 1715, opponent drops to 1687
Game 2: he wins with 2 medals difference, but since he is much more ranked below you (28 points), he gains more than 15 points.
En result: you 1695, opponent 1707.

This means you can better loose first, and win the rematch than doing the opposite.

This points system is really annoying me.
- I've had opponents insist on them playing the weaker side first because it was better for their eventual skill score
- I've had opponents who only wanted to play one game and with the stronger side (but at least being honest about it in advance)
- I've recently had an increase of opponents promise a 2 game match and leave either after the first game or during the final turn of the first game. This especially happens when they loose with the stronger side, but sometimes when they win with the stronger side. It never happens when they played the weaker side first ... Wink
- I've seen people get praised for their high ranking (on the french forum), while those people only or mostly play stronger sides of battles, and mostly agains less experienced opponents.

DoW has said the skill score is badly in need of improvement and that players should not take it into account, and rather play for ranks, awards, etc ... But as long as the skill score ranking is available on the website, there will be people playing for it. I don't mind that some people want to play for it (I have done so myself) but I do mind that it is provoking players to resort to unsportmanlike behaviour.

I would really like for DoW to take the skill ranking off-line or at least render it invisible. It is bad for this community.

(I've started to decline invites from people I don't know to badly balanced battles. That is a bad evolution. )
      
clorofila
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Re:Skill points Fri, 24 August 2012 16:42
Quit2 wrote on Fri, 24 August 2012 11:20

[...]
- I've recently had an increase of opponents promise a 2 game match and leave either after the first game or during the final turn of the first game. This especially happens when they loose with the stronger side, but sometimes when they win with the stronger side. It never happens when they played the weaker side first ... Wink
[...]
(I've started to decline invites from people I don't know to badly balanced battles. That is a bad evolution. )


These are the most important issues, from my point of view. I haven't been effected this way yet, but if I do, I'll second your motion, Wim.
      
tank commander
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Re:Skill points Fri, 24 August 2012 22:15
The think the biggest load is when you lose a game by a 5 to 6 score in which the side your playing only wins 30% of the time and you still have "underperformed".

Also not taking into account hit pcts and / or the relative strength of the cards played in ap layer's "performance" or lack there - well Rolling Eyes
      
    
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