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SKMorefield
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Thanks Devs!!! Thu, 26 May 2005 17:04
Newsflash!

Histories are now public... wow, you guys are awesome! Thanks for listening to us!!! This should really curb the cheating problems.

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:06]

      
Peter de Zeeuw
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  Re:Thanks Devs!!! Thu, 26 May 2005 17:25
I totally agree with you, SKMorefield!

This new feature is AWESOME!!!

Great work DoW!

D.I.S.
      
*player100644
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Thu, 26 May 2005 17:37
Thanks for making it!

I noticed that the games are not in correct time order in the game history, that other players can see. I love order. Could I ask to get them in correct order? Please Smile

But anyway thank you DoW workers, a lot! Razz


[ How can I make so many writing mistakes in so short writing. I have been correcting this many times already.. Wink ]

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:02]

      
pilke
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Thu, 26 May 2005 17:44
tiuku wrote on Thu, 26 May 2005 18:37

I noticed that the games are not in correct time order in the game history, that other players can't see.


Oh, with this I meant, that they are not in correct time order inside one day. The days are in correct order.

Thanks from pilke too Wink

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:54]

      
thekid
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Thu, 26 May 2005 18:36
Very cool. Would it be possible to sort by player so people could know what their record is against others instead of having to page back and back and back.

Thanks.
      
SKMorefield
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Thu, 26 May 2005 19:40
Just some first impressions from this great new feature:


1.) thekid - at the risk of swelling his already humongous head Wink I gotta give him his props; he is, consistently day to day the BEST at this game. We already knew this but opening the histories just seals it. Sure he lost the tourney, but as I said before even Tiger can't win them all. But he wins at a higher percentage than anyone else in this game (and he plays everybody!) and that's surely deserving of #1.

2.) cheating - At first glance, and I only looked at a few, cheating doesn't seem as rampant as I feared (which is a good thing). This said, however, after the two top cheaters (#1 and #2)have been demoted.

3.) Wernerus - To expand on point 2, one prominent case that might require some looking into is Wernerus. After I saw the first few I scrolled back and counted, and he has a 55-6 record against another player from Austria named Katzenfrau. Some of the scores are severely lopsided. Some of them are 3 player games with a dumbot. Katzenfrau is a top 100 player, so no way he is THAT bad. I think Kat is Wernerus's alter-ego, and he sprinkled in a few losses (either purposefully or accidentally) just to cast aside suspicion if it were looked into. I could gain a lot of points with a 55-7 record against my (also top 100) wife Kimber, were I wanting to cheat. Sad

His record against everyone else looks like possibly top 100, but not top 10 at all, least of all top 2.

4.) guests - My opinion, we should see those histories as well since guests can see that information themselves. Someone who really wanted to could just play an alger ego as a guest and keep changing the name to avoid suspicion... which is another reason, as has been mentioned, guests should not be allowed to have a regular name. Why give them this priviledge? The purpose (I think) of a guest account is to learn the game and decide if you want to buy it, that's it.


I agree with thekid on sorting, but that is something I think most of us can wait for if it's a lot of trouble. You have done us a tremendous service here. Again, thanks to the devs at DoW. We appreciate all you do!



Best,
SKM
      
thekid
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Thu, 26 May 2005 19:55
Thanks SK, I knew you would look at me first. The 2 I looked at were Zebra and Mystic Rollmops as they were on top at 1824 and 1819 for a long time and Zebra in an earlier post had said they were the same person. Zebra beat Mystic a few times and both beat this guest August 8 1963 quite a lot. Can't wait to check out a few others.
      
*player24262
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Thu, 26 May 2005 20:03
SKMorefield écrit le Thu, 26 May 2005 19:40


4.) guests - Someone who really wanted to could just play an alger ego as a guest and keep changing the name to avoid suspicion...

no need to worry about that, when a guest ( or any player) changes his name, you see the actual name in you history

the problem is for the ones who would have several dummy accounts

for my part, I saw one strange game history : someone from the top 30 who played and won VERY often one guest....
But I know they are husband and wife Laughing Laughing Laughing

Stop playing your wife , she's too good for you Laughing Laughing Laughing

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:05]

      
SKMorefield
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Thu, 26 May 2005 20:46
Thanks Leachris for clearing that up. I didn't think of that. I do think making guests keep the guest(number) account name would help us avoid playing them if we choose, and encourage guests to pay (or buy) to play.

Kid, if I told you I didn't look at yours first you wouldn't believe me and I couldn't prove it so I'll leave it at that. Wink I did see what I fully expected to see, however. The top 10 will get the most scrutiny (people looking at their games history), but that's a good thing in the long run.
      
frunk
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Thu, 26 May 2005 21:44
Wow, how spiffy. I'm surprised by how few of the top players play in >2 player games. I know I've played Womble a few times, always fun, but the next regular >2 player besides me is #22 M_Vuorinen. Does this mean I can reclaim my first place ranking? Very Happy
      
*player44342
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Thu, 26 May 2005 22:34
frunk wrote on Thu, 26 May 2005 12:44

Wow, how spiffy. I'm surprised by how few of the top players play in >2 player games. I know I've played Womble a few times, always fun, but the next regular >2 player besides me is #22 M_Vuorinen. Does this mean I can reclaim my first place ranking? Very Happy


You are clearly the top at 4 player. Keep pushing for divided rankings!
      
frunk
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Thu, 26 May 2005 23:13
rek{} wrote on Thu, 26 May 2005 16:34

You are clearly the top at 4 player. Keep pushing for divided rankings!



I agree there should be divided rankings, but I also understand DoW not wanting to make it more complicated and imposing for newcomers. Still, I'd love to see separate 2, 3, 4 and 5 player ratings, or just raw stats on places in each category.

Actually out of 3,4 and 5, 4 is clearly my weakest number. I have ~86% player win percentage in 3 and 5, but 4 player is barely over 82%. Notice that's player wins not game wins, game wins is more difficult to compare between different numbers of players.
      
*player44342
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 01:11
The player who disappeared from the top 10 was Mithrandir. His history shows he played the same player about 20 time in a row and won each game. And that player played another player and won them all. Definitely looks like cheating.

Showing the histories ought to put an end to this; these people should be pretty embarrassed.
      
Franck
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 01:32
Hi everyone

So you've found it... hey...
Too late for a scoop announcement then Rolling Eyes

to pilke/tiuku Laughing :
I didn't notice the order problem as I don't print the time...
I'll have a look at this ASAP

to thekid:
Unfortunately, sorting by opponent is not that easy...
Don't forget that the system isn't limited to two players games and sorting by opponent name when there are more than one opponent wouldn't get you a long way...

to SKMorefield:
In fact the history for the guests players should be available...
There must be a problem somewhere...
I'll double check the code ASAP for that too... Embarassed

to rek{} and frunk:
Divided Rankings wouldn't only be complicated and imposing for newcomers...
I'm not even sure that we can compute such rankings with the info we store in the DB...

By the way, this feature came with another one that you apparently didn't catch Twisted Evil
It's the "Search a user by login" feature...
You can reach it via "Community>Find Other players" and then click on the second tab...
      
*player39229
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 04:55
Franck wrote on Fri, 27 May 2005 09:32

Divided Rankings wouldn't only be complicated and imposing for newcomers...
I'm not even sure that we can compute such rankings with the info we store in the DB...


Say what? Sure you can. You've got a complete history of the games since the system first went up, haven't you? You just start everyone with 1500 points, then apply each game in turn. It'd take a while, but it's certainly possible. I find it hard to believe that it would take more than a day or so on a workstation working from a data dump (so as not to disturb the servers which are running the games). Write a script, set it going on Friday night, and you'll have a fairly up-to-date set of rankings when you get to work on Monday.

Heck, I could probably write the script for you, if you can specify a data format... If I can find a couple of hours to spare, that is. My time is at an extreme premium these days, so writing such a script might get put off for months.
      
onyx puffin LOL
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  Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 05:44
Add my note to the thanks. Sure would be nice to have a 2/3, 4/5 ranking system.
Also, it seems so obvious DoW needs to look into Wernerus. Even the few that his common opponent won, it seems the dumbot may have had a strong influence that kept Wernerus from winning as usual. Mad
      
*player44342
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 06:25
onyx puffin wrote on Thu, 26 May 2005 20:44

Add my note to the thanks. Sure would be nice to have a 2/3, 4/5 ranking system.
Also, it seems so obvious DoW needs to look into Wernerus. Even the few that his common opponent won, it seems the dumbot may have had a strong influence that kept Wernerus from winning as usual. Mad



I'd divide it 2 (pure) and 3/4/5.

Anyway, apparently it is technically impossible and/or too complicated for us low IQ users so it is a moot point. Wink
      
*player25691
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 09:04
Yeah, looking at Wernerus's history, it's pretty damned clear he's cheating. No one can have that kind of win rate against someone in the top 100 and the fact that he's played that person SO many times, particularly recently, just makes it a duh.
      
*player50072
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 13:23
Oh, the mob is taking over.

Maybe Wernerus and Katzenfrau are family, that played each other often, months ago. Today Katzenfrau is 73, after playing a lot. Keep civilized.
      
Franck
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 15:28
Quote:


to pilke/tiuku Laughing :
I didn't notice the order problem as I don't print the time...
I'll have a look at this ASAP


Fixed

Quote:


to SKMorefield:
In fact the history for the guests players should be available...
There must be a problem somewhere...
I'll double check the code ASAP for that too... Embarassed


Done

Quote:

My time is at an extreme premium these days, so writing such a script might get put off for months.

Same here...
Of course, I now everything is technically doable...
But you just can't imagine the size of the todo lists here Wink
Be sure, we do our best...

Generally speaking, please be careful before you publicly tell that one player or another cheats as this can hurt... Just look at my history and you will see that 3 games out of 4 are played with ariellou... This doesn't mean it's a dummy account I use... She's my wife, that's all...

OK, back to mute mode and work Wink
      
frunk
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 16:00
rek{} wrote on Fri, 27 May 2005 00:25


I'd divide it 2 (pure) and 3/4/5.

Anyway, apparently it is technically impossible and/or too complicated for us low IQ users so it is a moot point. Wink


And my preference would be 2/4 and 3/5. 2 and 4 are the "loose" games where the board is more open, while 3 and 5 are the "tight ones where it gets crowded very fast.

Franck:

As for the technical aspects, it wouldn't be necessary to re-run all the games. I would be happy with everyone taking their current rating into each divided rating, provided they've played at least 10% of their games in that category (or 20% if it's divided into two categories). In categories that failed to meet this requirement they would be reset to provisional. Might as well continue to track the total rating same as before.
      
SKMorefield
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 16:21
I totally agree that we need to avoid witchhunts... my wife and I have played several games with each other also. However, there are some cases which are blatantly obvious (like a top 100 player having a 6-55 record against our current '#2'. These deserve scrutiny, for the integrity of the ranking system. This will police itself I think, with the really really obvious ones who make top 10 getting censured (as Achim and BumBum were).

As I said before, however, the cheating really isn't all that bad, and it will clear up before long I think. Amazing how a little sun can dry up the mold and send the rats scurrying for cover. Laughing

Thanks again for all you devs do to fix bugs, improve the game, and keep it running.

Oh, and Franck, just glancing at your game history, it's blatantly obvious from distribution of wins that your wife is a better player than you are. Laughing Wink Don't worry, nobody will accuse you of any funny business.

SKM

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 27 May 2005 19:40]

      
Franck
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 18:37
SKMorefield écrit le Fri, 27 May 2005 16:21

Oh, and Franck, just glancing at your game history, it's blatantly obvious from distribution of wins that your wife is a better player than you are. Laughing Wink Don't worry, nobody will accuse you of any funny business.

OK, I should have written "This doesn't mean I'm her dummy account" Rolling Eyes

And sorry for editing your post...
Not used to moderator's privileges yet Embarassed
      
pilke
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 18:42
SKMorefield wrote on Fri, 27 May 2005 17:21

However, there are some cases which are blatantly obvious (like a top 100 player having a 6-55 record against our current '#2'.


SKM please use account names, not ranking numbers! I am now #3, but I have been long time #2, so some people seem to think you are talking about me. I have never cheated and you all can see it in my game history.

So to you who tought so: SKM was talking about Wernerus, who is now #2, but I hope not for long!
      
*player24262
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 19:02
pilke écrit le Fri, 27 May 2005 18:42

So to you who tought so: SKM was talking about Wernerus, who is now #2, but I hope not for long!

one other sit in the top ten will be free soon I think
      
SKMorefield
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 19:38
pilke wrote on Fri, 27 May 2005 12:42

SKMorefield wrote on Fri, 27 May 2005 17:21

However, there are some cases which are blatantly obvious (like a top 100 player having a 6-55 record against our current '#2'.


SKM please use account names, not ranking numbers! I am now #3, but I have been long time #2, so some people seem to think you are talking about me. I have never cheated and you all can see it in my game history.

So to you who tought so: SKM was talking about Wernerus, who is now #2, but I hope not for long!



Yes that is correct... Wernerus is the one I was talking about, the 'current' but hopefully not lasting #2. Razz
      
*player25691
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 19:40
Zugbegleiterin wrote on Fri, 27 May 2005 07:23



Maybe Wernerus and Katzenfrau are family, that played each other often, months ago.


All of their games have happened recently, something which makes sense for someone who's feeding points from one account to another. It's not really a question of whether two people could play each other that much it's whether they could have such a lopsided record and both be top 100 players
      
SKMorefield
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 19:41
Franck wrote on Fri, 27 May 2005 12:37


OK, I should have written "This doesn't mean I'm her dummy account" Rolling Eyes




You need to get your house in order. Wink Wink
      
*player25691
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 20:17
Franck wrote on Fri, 27 May 2005 09:28

Generally speaking, please be careful before you publicly tell that one player or another cheats as this can hurt... Just look at my history and you will see that 3 games out of 4 are played with ariellou... This doesn't mean it's a dummy account I use... She's my wife, that's all...

OK, back to mute mode and work Wink



No one would think that looking at yours though for two reasons. One, your win/loss record vs. her is much more realistic. Two, the two of you together have played multiplayer games with "randoms" fairly regularly.

It's not just about playing one person a lot, it's about that combined with the fact that the record is so very lopsided and combined with the fact that the loser on that lopsidedness is somehow still a top 100 player. And if the person in question had never player Wernerus at all they would probably be in the top 20. Having a 90% win rate against a top 20 player is ridiculous.

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 27 May 2005 20:18]

      
*player25691
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Fri, 27 May 2005 20:22
SKMorefield wrote on Thu, 26 May 2005 13:40


3.) Wernerus - To expand on point 2, one prominent case that might require some looking into is Wernerus. After I saw the first few I scrolled back and counted, and he has a 55-6 record against another player from Austria named Katzenfrau. Some of the scores are severely lopsided. Some of them are 3 player games with a dumbot. Katzenfrau is a top 100 player, so no way he is THAT bad. I think Kat is Wernerus's alter-ego, and he sprinkled in a few losses (either purposefully or accidentally) just to cast aside suspicion if it were looked into. I could gain a lot of points with a 55-7 record against my (also top 100) wife Kimber, were I wanting to cheat. Sad




Another possibility is that Katzenfrau is a real person who just logs in to play against Wernerus (real games) and lets Wernerus use his account to build rating at other times. Ratings padding is entirely possible under this scenario with no actual "thrown" games.
      
SKMorefield
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Mon, 30 May 2005 16:26
AlexM wrote on Fri, 27 May 2005 14:22

SKMorefield wrote on Thu, 26 May 2005 13:40


3.) Wernerus - To expand on point 2, one prominent case that might require some looking into is Wernerus. After I saw the first few I scrolled back and counted, and he has a 55-6 record against another player from Austria named Katzenfrau. Some of the scores are severely lopsided. Some of them are 3 player games with a dumbot. Katzenfrau is a top 100 player, so no way he is THAT bad. I think Kat is Wernerus's alter-ego, and he sprinkled in a few losses (either purposefully or accidentally) just to cast aside suspicion if it were looked into. I could gain a lot of points with a 55-7 record against my (also top 100) wife Kimber, were I wanting to cheat. Sad




Another possibility is that Katzenfrau is a real person who just logs in to play against Wernerus (real games) and lets Wernerus use his account to build rating at other times. Ratings padding is entirely possible under this scenario with no actual "thrown" games.



Alex, from talking to Wernerus in the lobby and drawing some conclusions based on what he said, this appears to be exactly the case. He said Katzenfrau is his daughter and he beats her most of the time, but not all the time. He never would admit to padding her rating, but my guess is that's probably the case because I doubt she would have THAT bad a record against dear old dad and such a good record against everyone else! Oh well, this one isn't so cut and dry... any suggestions as to any action DoW should take (or not take) if they decide to?





      
*player44342
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Mon, 30 May 2005 20:20
Diluting the scoring formula when playing someone you play often seems like the best solution.

It could just look at the last 100 games.

0-5 100%
6-10 50%
11-15 25%
15+ 0%

This avoids the "inbreeding" problem.

      
ElSoyokaze
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Mon, 30 May 2005 20:33
rek{} wrote on Mon, 30 May 2005 13:20

Diluting the scoring formula when playing someone you play often seems like the best solution.

It could just look at the last 100 games.

0-5 100%
6-10 50%
11-15 25%
15+ 0%

This avoids the "inbreeding" problem.




But what about the people who honestly play each other a lot? I noticed last night that plcrams and thaddäus have played each other at least fifteen times. Their games go back and forth, so it's obviously not "inbreeding".

--ElSoy
      
*player44342
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Mon, 30 May 2005 20:42
Quote:


But what about the people who honestly play each other a lot? I noticed last night that plcrams and thaddäus have played each other at least fifteen times. Their games go back and forth, so it's obviously not "inbreeding".
--ElSoy


The effect on their rating get diluted after a bit. They can still play...

I've played thaddäus alot myself and I'd be more than happy to have the effect on my score diluted!!! Wink

Is the solution worse than the problem? I don't think so, but maybe someone has another idea?
      
Angel 6
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  Re:Thanks Devs!!! Mon, 30 May 2005 20:56
I'd like to tell a story of two Austrian couples, one having an 11 year old daughter.

The husbands were regular bridge partners, and all of the 5 loved to play board games like T2R, so they often met and played together for a whole weekend.

When they learned about T2R-Online, they started to play it intensively, particularly the two husbands and one wife.

They bought the board game 4 times, not only to sponsor DoW, but to get 4 accounts for the online game, one for each 'hooked' players and one for mother+daughter.

The two husbands and the much playing wife made it to the top of the rankings quite fast, whereas mother+daughter played less and also less successful.

Playing at the top is somewhat stressful, so both men also played with the account of mother+daughter, if they just wanted to relax, or try something, or play 3/4/5 player games, or...

Also importantly, the girl liked it the most to play against her father, and so they did quite often, and the girl was very happy with every (seldom) win. Razz

So, they all lived happily together, until one of them discovered a forum, where things about one of them where postet, which he found somewhat irritating and mean. Sad

Of course mother+daughter sometimes playes much better and sometimes much worse, and of course mother+daughter has a better ranking than they would have on their own, and of course father gets a few points more beating his daughter than he should get.

BUT, all this has nothing to do with cheating but only with having fun in the manner they like, not doing any harm to anybody, and I don't like those accusations at all. Evil or Very Mad

Especially, the father has got a very good percentage against strong players, and having 1790 or 1750 ELO ranking would not be much of a difference for him.

Maybe it would be nice to say, lets not count the games against the daughter for the father´s ranking, but this is not possible currently. So, the father´s ranking is the result of very good play and upright behaviour - even if it not EXACTLY (but almost!) represents his correct playing strenght.

Kind Regards,

Angel6, husband,
Angel9, wife,
Wernerus, father, and
Katzenfrau, mother and daughter.

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:02]

      
piratedwarf
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Mon, 30 May 2005 22:30
Angel6 wrote on Mon, 30 May 2005 21:56


...
Playing at the top is somewhat stressful, so both men also played with the account of mother+daughter, if they just wanted to relax, or try something, or play 3/4/5 player games, or...

Of course mother+daughter sometimes playes much better and sometimes much worse, and of course mother+daughter has a better ranking than they would have on their own, and of course father gets a few points more beating his daughter than he should get.

BUT, all this has nothing to do with cheating but only with having fun in the manner they like, not doing any harm to anybody, and I don't like those accusations at all. Evil or Very Mad

Especially, the father has got a very good percentage against strong players, and having 1790 or 1750 ELO ranking would not be much of a difference for him.

Maybe it would be nice to say, lets not count the games against the daughter for the father´s ranking, but this is not possible currently. So, the father´s ranking is the result of very good play and upright behaviour - even if it not EXACTLY (but almost!) represents his correct playing strenght.



Maybe it would be nice to say that it is a good idea not to play on someone elses account - especially if you are a top player - and especially if that same account is later used to play against you by a not so good player.

Not only will this make you look like a cheater, but the effect is the same. Once again we come to the inconsistency of whether the ranking is important or not - you state that 40 SELO points wouldn't make the difference - if they don't, why use someone elses account when relaxing, testing and doing all sorts of stuff where you might lose a point or two.

And if you really do need another account for these kind of purposes, do create one of your own - and never play against it.

This way, you won't look like a cheater, you don't get any undeserved points, you won't inspire any witchhunts and best of all, everybody is happy - you included. Smile

And don't get me wrong - I do understand that you didn't mean to cheat - but it's not just the motivation that counts.
      
pilke
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Mon, 30 May 2005 22:48
Angel6 wrote on Mon, 30 May 2005 21:56

The two husbands and the much playing wife made it to the top of the rankings quite fast, whereas mother+daughter played less and also less successful.

It doesn't seem to me that the account Katzenfrau is used by a bad player mostly. Katzenfrau is playing badly almost only against wernerus.

I don't think it is fair to play with an account and get good rank to it, and then play against that account used by a bad player. Maybe if wernerus wouldn't be ranked so good, I wouldn't mind. But he has lifted himself up to place 2 (now 3) that way.

If that would be fair, I would have finally found a way to beat the kid Wink I am sure some friend of mine would play with my second account tiuku against me if I would ask. And with my playing experience I am sure I would win the most games (thekid, you don't have to be worried, I wouldn't do anything that unfair and with my current skills I can't beat you in score)

Angel6 wrote on Mon, 30 May 2005 21:56

Also importantly, the girl liked it the most to play against her father, and so they did quite often, and the girl was very happy with every (seldom) win. Razz

To keep things fair, the girl should get her own (guest) account, that is not used by others.

Angel6 wrote on Mon, 30 May 2005 21:56

Especially, the father has got a very good percentage against strong players, and having 1790 or 1750 ELO ranking would not be much of a difference for him.

Maybe it doens't make difference to him, put to those just behind him, it makes a difference.

Angel6 wrote on Mon, 30 May 2005 21:56

Maybe it would be nice to say, lets not count the games against the daughter for the father´s ranking, but this is not possible currently.

Dow people can make the score of Wernerus smaller, if you ask nicely (and want to be fair). With the good skills of wernerus, I am sure he gets himself up back soon.

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 30 May 2005 22:56]

      
Angel 6
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  Re:Thanks Devs!!! Tue, 31 May 2005 09:53
piratedwarf and pilke, thank you for your nice answers - I think both of you are right.

Although Katzenfrau also plays 'weak' angainst other players than Wernerus regulary (otherwise, Katzenfrau would be ranked 1700+ probably), this won't change the fact that Wernerus' ranking is not completely mathematically correct.

To be honest, for me a ranking of 1800 seams very difficult to reach and my actual 1748 is the highest I ever had.
Also, I don't think Wernerus is really a better player than me Rolling Eyes , though we never played each other beside the board game.

I can see 2 possible solutions to this "problem" (if it is one) without being unfair towards Wernerus:

1) Wernerus could ask DoW to reduce his ranking to ... maybe 1750 ?! But I don't really think he will, because he believes his ranking to be correct (what I can understand very well).
Please do not forget that Katzensfrau's true ranking would be 1400-1500 probably and was/is 1550-1600 actually. This makes not a great difference for the winning points of Wernerus (though a calculation could be interesting).

2) Top players could challenge Wernerus to play with them many games. Then, Wernerus will have his correct ranking very fast (and maybe it will be 1800+). ELO ranking is very fair in the way that current games count more than older games. So, even 30 games against other players than Kastenfrau (no matter if strong or weak players) would easily prove, whether Wernerus' ranking is correct or not.
      
*player44342
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Tue, 31 May 2005 10:45
Angel6 wrote on Tue, 31 May 2005 00:53


2) Top players could challenge Wernerus to play with them many games. Then, Wernerus will have his correct ranking very fast (and maybe it will be 1800+). ELO ranking is very fair in the way that current games count more than older games. So, even 30 games against other players than Kastenfrau (no matter if strong or weak players) would easily prove, whether Wernerus' ranking is correct or not.


Wernerus must recognize that his current ranking isn't really valid. If I understand correctly, two people used the Kastenfrau account, one stronger and one weaker, and Wernerus played against the weaker one while everyone else got the stronger?

I also disagree that 30 games against weak players would prove anything, he'd have to play some decent competition IMO. You can pretty easily win 28+/30 against weak random competition.

I actually don't care what is done... if Wernerus becomes an active player again things will settle to where they belong. I'm just glad to see another strong player back at the table (and you too Angel6!)

I'm looking forward to playing both of you!

      
pilke
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Re:Thanks Devs!!! Tue, 31 May 2005 11:15
rek{} wrote on Tue, 31 May 2005 11:45

Wernerus must recognize that his current ranking isn't really valid. If I understand correctly, two people used the Kastenfrau account, one stronger and one weaker, and Wernerus played against the weaker one while everyone else got the stronger?

If I understood correctly there were four person using the account: Wernerus, angel6, the wife of wernerus, And as a fourth player, the daughter of wernerus was using the account to play against wernerus.

Angel6 wrote on Tue, 31 May 2005 10:53

I can see 2 possible solutions to this "problem" (if it is one) without being unfair towards Wernerus:

1) Wernerus could ask DoW to reduce his ranking to ... maybe 1750 ?! But I don't really think he will, because he believes his ranking to be correct (what I can understand very well).
Please do not forget that Katzensfrau's true ranking would be 1400-1500 probably and was/is 1550-1600 actually. This makes not a great difference for the winning points of Wernerus (though a calculation could be interesting).

2) Top players could challenge Wernerus to play with them many games. Then, Wernerus will have his correct ranking very fast (and maybe it will be 1800+). ELO ranking is very fair in the way that current games count more than older games. So, even 30 games against other players than Kastenfrau (no matter if strong or weak players) would easily prove, whether Wernerus' ranking is correct or not.


I accept gladly the first suggestion with at least 50 points taken of his current ranking. I think it is a fair thing to do and I would appreciate a person who did so.

(Are you serious that the eleven year old would be ranked 1550, with out the help of you three? She is good for her age!)

And from now on, I think the girl should get her own account, that is not even used by her mother, when she plays against wernerus. And wernerus should stop playing against account katzenfrau totally. (it is partly his own account!)

The second proposal is not so fair. I think getting to 1786 is a lot of work, and I think wernerus should do that work. And not get points for free.

With this I don't mean that he couldn't get there and that he would be worse player than I. He just should do the work like the rest of us.

So wernerus, please ask your score to be at least 50 points lower. After that I can play a lot with you if you want and you can get the points back from me Wink

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:30]

      
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