Small World of Warcraft Small World of Warcraft

Forums

Recherche
Forums » Ticket to Ride - the Board Game - English » The Nations Cup
Montrer: Messages du jour 
  
AuteurSujet
Angel 6
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2007

Messages: 1108
Enregistré(e) en :
November 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Fri, 22 July 2005 13:43
redPEPPER schrieb am Fri, 22 July 2005 13:14

Before the game proportion, the match proportion should be more significant.

Well, I am not sure of this.
For me, it doesn't really matter if there are 3 "levels of ranking sequencing" or just 2, but I find it most important to have "clash wins" (and not match wins) as first level.
Maybe, a third level is too complicated, and game wins seem to me to be more important than match wins.

I think the match wins are not so important, because it would just make 4-0 better than 3-1, nothing else. Whereas game wins can be very different (following your next suggestion 5:0, 4:1, 3:2), and should be taken into accout IMO.

redPEPPER schrieb am Fri, 22 July 2005 13:14

If the game proportions enters into account, shouldn't you play all five games rather than stop once a player reaches 3? A 3-0 might actually be a 3-2, a 4-1 or a 5-0. Playing them all gives a more accurate representation of the players' skill difference.

True! I like this suggestion!
bassie wrote "best of seven" (which means up to four), my suggestion was "best of five", but your suggestion always to play 5 games seems best for me now.

This would give the new example:

Team A plays a clash of 4 matches against Team B:
player A1 vs player B1 - 3:2
player A2 vs player B2 - 1:4
player A3 vs player B3 - 2:3
player A4 vs player B4 - 5:0

After that, the rudimentary tournament chart would look as follows:


Rank Team  Vicory points  game proportion
1.   TeamA      1               11:9
2.   TeamB      1               9:11


But everything will be decided by bassie, and of course I will accept any decision. Razz

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 22 July 2005 13:53]

      
SKMorefield
Senior Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 620
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Fri, 22 July 2005 14:29
I can understand the points made for playing 4 matches also within a 'clash'. Either way is OK by me. I do think we'll need to let more teams in if we do this... I hope there'll be enough for at least 12 teams.
      
pilke
Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 93
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Fri, 22 July 2005 21:35
The Finnish team is now ready Smile We have one extra player.
- Anu_
- Wuonex
- Make72 (The husband of Anu, he got a new account with webcard)
- Rogue (He will make an account for twoplayer games, with name Rogue in it)
- pilke

The Finnish team got even a sponsor Wink The Finnish Boardgame Society (Suomen Lautapeliseura) donated us a DoW webcard. Thank you for that Smile

I and Anu_ have already done some practicing with Make72 and we will do that with Rogue too. Anyway we will take this tournament relaxed. We will enjoy the games and we hope the same for the rest of the teams. Let's have fun Smile

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 22 July 2005 21:41]

      
*player40699
Junior Member

Messages: 2
Enregistré(e) en :
November 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Sat, 23 July 2005 01:38
What? No UK players????

I feel lonely...
      
Angel 6
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2007

Messages: 1108
Enregistré(e) en :
November 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Sat, 23 July 2005 21:53
pilke schrieb am Fri, 22 July 2005 21:35

- Rogue (He will make an account for twoplayer games, with name Rogue in it)

Thank you very much that Rogue takes a second user for 2-player-games! Smile
He actually is the 2nd best multiplayer overall, and it would be a pity to lose him. Sad
      
TuS WhiteTrain
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2011

Pages Perso
Messages: 375
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Mon, 25 July 2005 14:14
pilke schrieb am Fri, 22 July 2005 21:35


I and Anu_ have already done some practicing with Make72 and we will do that with Rogue too. Anyway we will take this tournament relaxed. We will enjoy the games and we hope the same for the rest of the teams. Let's have fun Smile




That sounds very relaxed to me Laughing , not that we are scared. No, the German team is very relaxed as well, however we have booked a 6 Week training camp in a cloister in Nepal, where we will do a lot of yoga and Thai-Chi to sharpen our minds. Moreover we have hired two psychiatrists and a masseuse. The colour of our jerseys will be gold, the shorts will be held in plain black and are donated by a big German company, not willing to be named here. We are still thinking about renting a hotel, where we can stay together for the duration of the games, hoping that this will increase our team spirit.

____________________________________________________________ ____
I`m so glad that this is just a game


      
Rode katers
Member

Messages: 79
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Mon, 25 July 2005 15:04
I hope Holland doesn't have to play against Germany in the final.With soccer we have had a bad expeience with that and it still haunts us every 4 years Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad

I just saw a book with the title: "Why Holland can never defeat Germany in a final" and it is written by a dutchman Shocked Shocked Shocked

Pur
Rode katers
      
*player61593
Senior Member

Messages: 147
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Mon, 25 July 2005 15:27
I don't think no one wants to play against Germans in final... Rolling Eyes

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 25 July 2005 15:27]

      
Peter de Zeeuw
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2012

Pages Perso
Messages: 500
Enregistré(e) en :
March 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Tue, 26 July 2005 10:10
WhiteTrain wrote on Mon, 25 July 2005 14:14

No, the German team is very relaxed as well, however we have booked a 6 Week training camp in a cloister in Nepal, where we will do a lot of yoga and Thai-Chi to sharpen our minds. Moreover we have hired two psychiatrists and a masseuse. The colour of our jerseys will be gold, the shorts will be held in plain black and are donated by a big German company, not willing to be named here. We are still thinking about renting a hotel, where we can stay together for the duration of the games, hoping that this will increase our team spirit.


Rode Katers, may I sleep over during the Nations Cup? We don't necessarily have to sleep in one bed if you don't want to, but I think that it will also be good for the Dutch team spirit. WhiteTrain actually has a good point here.

So what do you say?

And does anyone know if Gwen is making any progress to form the Belgium squad? I sure hope they don't all play like her, because then the Belgiums won't stand a chance! Sad

D.I.S.
      
Elric - Sancerre
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2005

Pages Perso
Messages: 1886
Enregistré(e) en :
May 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Tue, 26 July 2005 11:12
WhiteTrain écrit le Mon, 25 July 2005 14:14

pilke schrieb am Fri, 22 July 2005 21:35


I and Anu_ have already done some practicing with Make72 and we will do that with Rogue too. Anyway we will take this tournament relaxed. We will enjoy the games and we hope the same for the rest of the teams. Let's have fun Smile


That sounds very relaxed to me Laughing , not that we are scared. No, the German team is very relaxed as well, however we have booked a 6 Week training camp in a cloister in Nepal, where we will do a lot of yoga and Thai-Chi to sharpen our minds. Moreover we have hired two psychiatrists and a masseuse. The colour of our jerseys will be gold, the shorts will be held in plain black and are donated by a big German company, not willing to be named here. We are still thinking about renting a hotel, where we can stay together for the duration of the games, hoping that this will increase our team spirit.



Laughing Laughing Laughing Very excellent, WhiteTrain !!! Such a sense of humor !!!

Well, I don't know exactly for the French team yet, but we're thinking about 2 or 3 things : to recruit Zidane and Platini to give us their winnning spirit (Michael Jordan couldn't Sad ); to install micros in Alan Moon's room to discover the ultimate secrets of TTR; and maybe... for one or two millions of dollars, offer the french nationality to thekid and pilke, but our government still disagree... for the moment ! Wink Wink Wink Laughing
      
Rode katers
Member

Messages: 79
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Tue, 26 July 2005 13:44
Ofcourse you can sleep over Peter!!! But I do think that sleeping in one bed is the best for teamspirit.

(this is really a lousy way to get somebody in my bed Crying or Very Sad Crying or Very Sad Crying or Very Sad Crying or Very Sad)

Pur
Rode katers

      
Elric - Sancerre
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2005

Pages Perso
Messages: 1886
Enregistré(e) en :
May 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Tue, 26 July 2005 18:39
Optimus écrit le Tue, 12 July 2005 23:07

Btw, I was about -21 when Germany had it's historical sports miracle Very Happy

Just to know, Optimus... what happened in 1956 for the german sport that can be called 'a miracle' ?
Thanks for the answer !
      
*player61593
Senior Member

Messages: 147
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Tue, 26 July 2005 19:15
Peter de Zeeuw écrit le Tue, 26 July 2005 04:10



And does anyone know if Gwen is making any progress to form the Belgium squad? I sure hope they don't all play like her, because then the Belgiums won't stand a chance! Sad

D.I.S.

I don't know, but if it can help, Zebra is a belgium player and he didn't play for 15 days (3 months...) and he would be first... if Gwen tries to contacts him (or her), it would help the Belgium team...

Scrat7

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 26 July 2005 21:49]

      
TuS WhiteTrain
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2011

Pages Perso
Messages: 375
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Tue, 26 July 2005 20:02
Elric schrieb am Tue, 26 July 2005 11:12


Laughing Laughing Laughing Very excellent, WhiteTrain !!! Such a sense of humor !!!

Well, I don't know exactly for the French team yet, but we're thinking about 2 or 3 things : to recruit Zidane and Platini to give us their winnning spirit (Michael Jordan couldn't Sad ); to install micros in Alan Moon's room to discover the ultimate secrets of TTR; and maybe... for one or two millions of dollars, offer the french nationality to thekid and pilke, but our government still disagree... for the moment ! Wink Wink Wink Laughing


Tks for the nice reply Elric, i like the idea with the micros and i was laughing loudly about it.

The only thing in german sports i know, that is called a miracle was 1954 the win of the soccer worldcup against Hungary.

And to Scrat7, maybe you check Zebras history and make up your mind if this is a history worth to be in the top 20 or even top 50, If i get the chance to play him maybe he can prove me that i m wrong,but the only reason he is rated so high, is that he had the advantage of the old scoring system

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 26 July 2005 20:12]

      
SKMorefield
Senior Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 620
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Tue, 26 July 2005 20:20
Elric wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 05:12

to install micros in Alan Moon's room to discover the ultimate secrets of TTR;



Funny, but my friend and I were talking about this the other day, because he got to see Alan Moon speak at Origins a few weekends ago... we both came to the conclusion that Alan Moon probably couldn't win a tournament of top players at his own game! I know this sounds like irony and bravado, but frankly he is busy creating games, not playing hundreds of games of one game getting better and better at it alone. He came up with the concept and, now that the cat is out of the bag, my guess is strategies that he never dreamed of are being used today by players he would never be able to beat in a series.

I doubt the inventor of baseball would be a better player today than Barry Bonds, the inventor of golf than Tiger Woods, etc. etc. I'd wager Pilke or thekid 10 to 1 in a best of 7 match against Alan Moon, no slight whatsoever against Mr. Moon who gave us this great game. Very Happy



SKM

      
gwen
Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 80
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Tue, 26 July 2005 20:26
Well Peter D.I.S., correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I've beaten you this afternoon. But that's of the record of course. Razz

About the belgian team, as I said before, it is a very difficult time of the year to find any belgian at home, they are almost all abroad.

Until now only redPEPPER confirmed participation. Flyingscotchman is still considering what to do. I really hope he will be in. I was hoping on Salve too, but she's abroad for three more weeks, so I don't know yet if she will be in or not.

I tried to contact Zebra, until now no answer received. But as he stopped playing in april I think there is only a very small chance that he will agree to play.

That's as far as I got until now. As soon as I know things for certain I will post them here.

Gwen

      
Not longer exist
Junior Member

Messages: 19
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Tue, 26 July 2005 23:55
Hi there ! Cool Cool Cool Cool

I'm Jessica B and i'm just arrived at the German training camp in Nepal.

Just going around the cloister and get my first impressions,all is looking very relaxed,weather is fine sun is shining bright, some yellow colored birds at the sky ,never seen this kind of birds before! Tail is looking like an fork and crossed by an knife,crazy bird ! Laughing Laughing Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Just around the corner a big van with beer and potato chips.

Today I have the chance to made some interviews with the g
German national players.

At the left entrance area I see Whiterain and Razamanaz sitting under an big sunshade, two glasses of ORANJES juices in front of them. Laughing Laughing Laughing

Jessica B.: Hello Whitetrain ! Please tell us what you and Raz are doing right now ?

Whitetrain.:Well Jessica ,we just started our first trainings lessons ,our goal should be to count without an mistake up to 45 ,but it's really hard, we made a lot of mistakes between 31 and 38.Really hard Jessica ,but I'm sure that I'm safe in counting until the games are starting.

Jessica B .: Hi Raz ! What's the matter of your first lessons ?

Razamanaz .: Well Jessica, nobody told me that I have to count more than 44 ,never counted more, have a real problem to find the next number. That's the reason that I'm sitting here together with Whitetrain I should listen to him how he's counting. 45 ? Never heard these number before But i'm sure that Whitetrain isn't a liar and that he would tells me the truth about that fucking number 45 !

I'm going over right to Osamu .He mades his first lessons in Yoga .His trainer Mr. Bandhar Singh in front of him ,I'm not sure if it's possible to ask him some questions ,but I try ! But no chance ! Mr Singh told me that Osamu learns to control hisself,nobody should disturb him, because in history he destroys after each lost game, his PC. His goal should be , that 5 PC are enough in that Championship, tomorrow we will know more,he starts his first Tournament games against Razamanaz. We are hopefully that two PC are enough.

Yes well my dear readers ,that was the first part of the interviews from the German national team members. Tomorrow I'm sure to get some interviews from Ikarus1304, Livermore and Optimus.

Cu

your reporter in Nepal
      
Optimus
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2006

Pages Perso
Messages: 279
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Wed, 27 July 2005 08:17
Elric schrieb am Tue, 26 July 2005 18:39

Optimus écrit le Tue, 12 July 2005 23:07

Btw, I was about -21 when Germany had it's historical sports miracle Very Happy

Just to know, Optimus... what happened in 1956 for the german sport that can be called 'a miracle' ?
Thanks for the answer !


It happend 1954 in Bern/Switzerland...

"Das Wunder von Bern" Very Happy
      
Angel 6
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2007

Messages: 1108
Enregistré(e) en :
November 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Wed, 27 July 2005 08:59
WhiteTrain schrieb am Tue, 26 July 2005 20:02

the only reason he [Zebra] is rated so high, is that he had the advantage of the old scoring system

I think, WhiteTrain is mistaking something.
In the old scoring system, it was not easier to get a good ELO-ranking than today.
Yes, you got more points for a win, BUT you also got more negative points for a loss.
So, the ELO-ranking of the players had more "jumping up and down", but is was as hard as today to get to 1800.

The reason for Zebra's 1800+ was good play combined with obvious cheating (looking at his history), but he surely is a 1700+ player.

Michael

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 27 July 2005 09:03]

      
Peter de Zeeuw
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2012

Pages Perso
Messages: 500
Enregistré(e) en :
March 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Wed, 27 July 2005 10:51
Gwen wrote

Well Peter D.I.S., correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I've beaten you this afternoon. But that's of the record of course. Razz


No need to rub it in, Gwen. After all, do you see me writing a post about how I blocked you out of Montreal and cost you the match last week? No.

Ok, so now it did. Laughing

Jessica B wrote:

At the left entrance area I see Whiterain and Razamanaz sitting under an big sunshade, two glasses of ORANJES juices in front of them. Laughing Laughing Laughing


Funny Jessy. Is this a joke addressed to the Dutch team? I can't help but feel it is...

But I must say that it's a wise decision to become the reporter for the German squad. It's better for you to stay on the sideline during the Nations Cup. This Cup isn't meant for little girls. Twisted Evil

See you all around, loved ones.

D.I.S.
      
Elric - Sancerre
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2005

Pages Perso
Messages: 1886
Enregistré(e) en :
May 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Wed, 27 July 2005 14:49
Optimus écrit le Wed, 27 July 2005 08:17

Elric schrieb am Tue, 26 July 2005 18:39

Optimus écrit le Tue, 12 July 2005 23:07

Btw, I was about -21 when Germany had it's historical sports miracle Very Happy
Just to know, Optimus... what happened in 1956 for the german sport that can be called 'a miracle' ?
Thanks for the answer !
It happend 1954 in Bern/Switzerland...
"Das Wunder von Bern" Very Happy


Thanks Optimus, and... Bravo, Elric Embarassed If I can't do the most elementary subtraction, I can go to bed (like we say in France !)... 75 - 21 = 56 Surprised ... goooood ! and of course, we have 47 trains in TTR Rolling Eyes Laughing Laughing
No seriously, if I'd got the good year, I would probably find the "german miracle"... Really, the Germans should NEVER win this soccer Worldcup... the Hungary team of these years always stay one of the best all-time teams (with Brasil' 70)... but, this is another story !
      
thadd
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2008

Messages: 253
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Wed, 27 July 2005 15:12
I won't take charge of the World Team Group.
If there is anybody else who is interested to take that idea over, just feel free. Pm me and I will tell you the names of the players interested.

thad

      
TuS WhiteTrain
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2011

Pages Perso
Messages: 375
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Wed, 27 July 2005 21:33
Angel6 schrieb am Wed, 27 July 2005 08:59

I think, WhiteTrain is mistaking something.


Michael


Hi Michael, maybe I didn`t put it clear enough. First of all: YOU ARE WRONG, of course is it easier to get to 1800 if you get 2 or wasnt it even 4 times?? the points for a win, but this would be advanced mathematics and i dont want to go that far, just that- if u cheat on the old system it makes it even more easy.

Zebra total games 237 wins:155 losses:82 per:65,4%
vs Dumbbots 32 -- 22 -- 10 -- 68,75% WOW

Just compare it to "theKid", roughly same rating. Kid wins almost 90%. Even the blindest has to see that Zebra is no 1700 player.

Waiting where my mistake this time is Cool

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 28 July 2005 16:29]

      
Angel 6
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2007

Messages: 1108
Enregistré(e) en :
November 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 28 July 2005 18:29
WhiteTrain schrieb am Wed, 27 July 2005 21:33

Waiting where my mistake this time is Cool

Hi WhiteTrain,

your mistake is very easy to show. Very Happy

The 65% wins of Zebra were including his earlier games, but the last games count more to your ELO than the older games.
Also, it depends on how strong your opponents are, 65% against top players are enough for 1800 easily.

Of course, you are right that with current ranking system, Zebra would not be a 1800-player, but I think the old system was better!
I can see no reason, why it is necessary to play 300 games to prove your rank. 100 good played games should be enough and back then 100 games were enough.

But my main point is the following:
Zebra had 3 accounts, Zebra, Mystic Rollmops (now called Erzzoin), and 1963 August 8th.
Zebra and Mystic Rollmops were the cheating accounts, always winning against 1963 August 8th.
But 1963 August 8th has an impressive history of 91% in the last 100 games, and even a better percentage in the last 60 games.
This proves for sure that a non-cheating Zebra would be easily 1700+, and this is also the reason, why a few wins against 1963 August 8th gave Zebra and Mystic their high ELO very fast.

Michael
      
SMP-bassie
Senior Member

Messages: 491
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 28 July 2005 19:22
An update on the rules:

After the reactions on what should be decisive for your rank in the tournament, right now my attitude is this.

Your rank is decided by the number of clashes won (2 points per clash won, and 1 per draw). If that's equal to another team's score, we look at the number of matches won (sorry Angel6, but I might still change my mind). After that we look at the number of games won. If that's still equal, I'm afraid we have to flip a coin.

4 matches per clash and 5 games per match (good idea redPEPPER).

I will post a full overview on the rules on a new thread by the end of this week. I will edit it if necessary until the 7th of August and I hope tjandjahall has agreed on being the TD by then. The rules will not be changed anymore from that date, if there are any disputes to be settled he will take care of them.

I will also keep track of the teams that already registered in the same thread.

Please keep posting your reactions at this thread, so the rulebook won't be mixed up. Smile
      
TuS WhiteTrain
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2011

Pages Perso
Messages: 375
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 28 July 2005 23:24
Thanks for information Michael, i was only aware of 2 accounts however i was suspecting Erzzoin as a possible third.
Thanks for information.
I think the new system still gives you the chance to get into the top 20 soon. Make72 and TheDude showed how easy it is to jump near the 1700+ ranks and your Angel345 is very impressive and makes you the most complete player in the zone because its quite different in the multiplayer games.


Best wishes
      
SKMorefield
Senior Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 620
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Thu, 28 July 2005 23:36
WhiteTrain wrote on Thu, 28 July 2005 17:24

Thanks for information Michael, i was only aware of 2 accounts however i was suspecting Erzzoin as a possible third.
Thanks for information.
I think the new system still gives you the chance to get into the top 20 soon. Make72 and TheDude showed how easy it is to jump near the 1700+ ranks and your Angel345 is very impressive and makes you the most complete player in the zone because its quite different in the multiplayer games.


Best wishes



It's not that it's so easy... you just need to have the right combination of training and/or experience. Make72 is Pilke's husband... enough said; and there is strong suspicion that 'TheDude' is a former well known top-10 player. I doubt anyone would jump into the ranks as 1600+ (and stay there!) having just started playing the game.




      
*player119882
Senior Member

Messages: 654
Enregistré(e) en :
June 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Fri, 29 July 2005 05:20
Angel6 wrote on Thu, 28 July 2005 12:29



Of course, you are right that with current ranking system, Zebra would not be a 1800-player, but I think the old system was better!
I can see no reason, why it is necessary to play 300 games to prove your rank. 100 good played games should be enough and back then 100 games were enough.





I have to disagree here.. I think 100 games is not enough at all for some players... browsing through the top 200 or so there are a few players whose games played are very low compared to everyone else (last time I looked, there were 4 or 5 with less then 100).. of these, about half have only palyer again two or three different people... while I wouldn't necessarily call this cheating, I also wouldn't say its on the same scale as a player whose rating has come from playing 100s of different opponents.

My solution here is that I think you should be provisional until you've played 20 different opponents, rather than 20 games.

      
pilke
Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 93
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Fri, 29 July 2005 09:38
pilke wrote on Fri, 22 July 2005 22:35

- Make72 (The husband of Anu, he got a new account with webcard)

SKMorefield wrote on Fri, 29 July 2005 00:36

Make72 is Pilke's husband...


So Make72 is not my husband. He is the husband of Anu. And he has played a lot before too with a quest account "Make" and trained with Anu and me, so that explains his fastness in rising in score. But I think it is too easy to get a lot of points in the provisional state and I have written to DoW about it.
      
SKMorefield
Senior Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 620
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Fri, 29 July 2005 14:38
pilke wrote on Fri, 29 July 2005 03:38


So Make72 is not my husband. He is the husband of Anu. And he has played a lot before too with a quest account "Make" and trained with Anu and me, so that explains his fastness in rising in score. But I think it is too easy to get a lot of points in the provisional state and I have written to DoW about it.



Sorry Pilke! I was in a hurry when I wrote that and didn't take the time to check for sure. But yes, that does explain his good score. He knew what he was doing from the start.
      
TuS WhiteTrain
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2011

Pages Perso
Messages: 375
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Fri, 29 July 2005 19:03
Hi SKM,
I withdraw the "easy" and set a "possible" instead, because you are right SKM it is not easy to get there.
      
*player39229
Senior Member

Messages: 350
Enregistré(e) en :
November 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Sat, 30 July 2005 08:50
pilke wrote on Fri, 29 July 2005 17:38

But I think it is too easy to get a lot of points in the provisional state and I have written to DoW about it.

I might be missing my guess, but it seems to me that you are perhaps mistaken concerning the objective of an ELO rating system. It isn't intended to be some sort of meta-competition, with players vying for the highest rating. It is intended to give a fairly accurate numerical representation of players' displayed skill. As that is the case, it shouldn't require players to play a lot of games to "earn" points. When enough data has been gathered to make a proper statistical comparison to other players, a new player is giving the rating indicated by an analysis of the game results - immediately, whether that player winds up with a rating of 500, 1500, or 1800.

The ELO rating system can give distorted results if players only compete against a fairly small subsection of the community - especially in cases where a small group plays mostly against each other. What should be remembered is that the ELO rating system as generally implemented only uses tournament results, which ensures that rated players meet a wide enough variety of opponents to prevent this problem. This is not the case with TTR played here.

(I've lost track of why this is relevant to the Nation's Cup.)
      
pilke
Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 93
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Sat, 30 July 2005 10:58
tjandjahall wrote on Sat, 30 July 2005 09:50

It is intended to give a fairly accurate numerical representation of players' displayed skill.

Yes, and what I mean is that the provisional state is not doing it now. If a person loses 20 times to me, his/her score will be my score -200. So about 1600 is not telling the persons skills then at all. If a provisional state player wins some low ranked persons after gettin his score up by losing to very good score person, his score will drop from that. It is now better to lose to the high ranked than win the low ranked in provisional state. If the person wins me in first game he/she plays, his/her score will be about 2000 after the first game. Then he doesn't have to win against a good player much and he/she will have a really good score. There isn't any starting score now. I wrote to dow about it and hopefully they fix it soon.
      
*player44342
Senior Member

Messages: 202
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Sat, 30 July 2005 12:47
tjandjahall wrote on Fri, 29 July 2005 23:50

I might be missing my guess, but it seems to me that you are perhaps mistaken concerning the objective of an ELO rating system. It isn't intended to be some sort of meta-competition, with players vying for the highest rating. It is intended to give a fairly accurate numerical representation of players' displayed skill.


Whether that is what is intended or not, that is how most people view it. Your definition sounds like a distinction without a difference to me. Why wouldn't people use a "fairly accurate numerical representation of players' displayed skill" as a meta-competition and vie for the highest rating? Why wouldn't people want this "fairly accurate numerical representation" to be as accurate as possible, making pilke's criticisms perfectly valid either way?
      
*player39229
Senior Member

Messages: 350
Enregistré(e) en :
November 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Sun, 31 July 2005 05:59
pilke wrote on Sat, 30 July 2005 18:58

Yes, and what I mean is that the provisional state is not doing it now. If a person loses 20 times to me, his/her score will be my score -200.

If that is how the player's first score is assigned, it isn't being assigned by a version of the ELO rating system.

In fact, the ELO rating system can't provide a proper score unless the player has both won at least one game and lost at least one game. Some implementations of the ELO rating system will assign a score to a player with all wins and all losses, because eventually administrators want to acknowledge that such a person is a recognised player, but statistically you can't estimate that person's skill properly. You can calculate an estimated upper bound for an ELO rating for a person who has only lost games, but you can't calculate a lower bound.

Quote:

So about 1600 is not telling the persons skills then at all. If a provisional state player wins some low ranked persons after gettin his score up by losing to very good score person, his score will drop from that. It is now better to lose to the high ranked than win the low ranked in provisional state. If the person wins me in first game he/she plays, his/her score will be about 2000 after the first game. Then he doesn't have to win against a good player much and he/she will have a really good score. There isn't any starting score now. I wrote to dow about it and hopefully they fix it soon.

By the ELO rating system, the provisional score you are looking at is entirely meaningless. It cannot be regarded as an accurate representation of the player's skill, because the data required to calculate that has not yet been accumulated. So, you are telling us that a largely meaningless number is fluctuating rapidly and in a non-sensical manner. I'm not sure why anybody should care.
      
*player39229
Senior Member

Messages: 350
Enregistré(e) en :
November 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Sun, 31 July 2005 06:09
rek{} wrote on Sat, 30 July 2005 20:47

Whether that is what is intended or not, that is how most people view it. Your definition sounds like a distinction without a difference to me. Why wouldn't people use a "fairly accurate numerical representation of players' displayed skill" as a meta-competition and vie for the highest rating? Why wouldn't people want this "fairly accurate numerical representation" to be as accurate as possible, making pilke's criticisms perfectly valid either way?

Obviously, it is best to have the ratings as accurate as possible. However, provisional ratings are provisional precisely because they are not accurate. A just-acquired non-provisional rating may be inaccurate as well, depending on the results on which it is based. (To be accurate, a rating needs to be based on a combination of wins and losses, preferably against several opponents.)

If people do want to vie for the highest rating, that's fine, but in doing so it is probably best to recognise that this is not the objective of the system. Those who are at the top haven't necessarily earned anything. A rating based on more data, and more varied data, is likely to be more accurate. If you want to consider it a personal achievement to acquire a high rank, you are likely to be much more satisfied if you don't try to compare yourself to players who have a high but probably distorted rating.

Using ratings for seedings is fine. The idea of seedings is not to give anyone a better chance of winning, but to manipulate the tournament so that high-profile players meet in later rounds rather than earlier, so from a tournament director's point of view it doesn't matter if seedings are inaccurate. (It is usually people who make money off of the tournaments who care.)
      
pilke
Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 93
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Sun, 31 July 2005 06:50
tjandjahall wrote on Sun, 31 July 2005 06:59

So, you are telling us that a largely meaningless number is fluctuating rapidly and in a non-sensical manner. I'm not sure why anybody should care.

Oh, I really hope I could speak/write english better.

If there isn't any middle point to start (no starting score at all), it might influence the whole score system to go bigger or smaller and not to be stable. I would like that average score would be quite stable, but I am just hoping it, not insisting it.

In the second formula in page "ranking system formulas", the Na*Ra= goes to 0, because the number of the games (Na) is 0 after the first game when the first new score is counted. That takes the starting score Ra away. I think it was meant that Na is 1, after the first game played and that is why I was writing to DoW and asking if they want to change it (and it seems they do).

If somebody cares it might improve the system to better direction.

[Mis à jour le: Sun, 31 July 2005 06:53]

      
*player39229
Senior Member

Messages: 350
Enregistré(e) en :
November 2004
Re:The Nations Cup Mon, 01 August 2005 02:55
pilke wrote on Sun, 31 July 2005 14:50

If there isn't any middle point to start (no starting score at all), it might influence the whole score system to go bigger or smaller and not to be stable. I would like that average score would be quite stable, but I am just hoping it, not insisting it.

Under ELO, the average score isn't stable anyway. FIDE periodically revises the rating requirements for the various titles they assign (International Master, Grand Master, and so on) due to steady rating inflation in the chess world. This instability is due to players entering and leaving the tournament scene - a factor that is likely to be exaggerated in an online gaming system.

Quote:

In the second formula in page "ranking system formulas", the Na*Ra= goes to 0, because the number of the games (Na) is 0 after the first game when the first new score is counted. That takes the starting score Ra away. I think it was meant that Na is 1, after the first game played and that is why I was writing to DoW and asking if they want to change it (and it seems they do).

I still don't see that it makes a big difference. Provisional scores, statistically, have a very high margin of error, due to the lack of data. All that change would do is influence the error in the direction of 1500 (or whatever the starting provisional rating is).
      
pilke
Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 93
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Mon, 01 August 2005 08:25
tjandjahall wrote on Mon, 01 August 2005 03:55

I still don't see that it makes a big difference. Provisional scores, statistically, have a very high margin of error, due to the lack of data. All that change would do is influence the error in the direction of 1500 (or whatever the starting provisional rating is).

Provisional scores have error, but if there is a way to change it to better direction at least to more equal one, so in my opinion, why not use it. Now a very big influence to provisional state score is the score of the opposite player in the first game. Why give such big importance to one single game and a thing that has nothing to do with the skills of the provisional state player (other players score). I think it should not matter so much as it does now. If the mistake is to direction of 1500, it would be at least more equal. This is my opinion, and thanks for giving information tjandjahall, but I am not changing my opinion in this. I will finish it here, I think I have polluted this National cup thread enough. Sorry for it.
      
staycool
Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2007

Messages: 72
Enregistré(e) en :
February 2005
Re:The Nations Cup Tue, 02 August 2005 14:53
Looking at the top 100 ranked players as of today, the following nations have good chances to find enough players for a top performing team:

Germany: 40 (8 among the top 20)
USA: 13 (3 among the top 20 and the worlds No 1)
Canada: 7
France: 7
Austria: 7
Finland: 6 (2 among the top 20 and the worlds No 2)
The Netherlands: 5

I only found 2 players from Switzerland and Belgium, and one player from Australia, Israel, Japan, and the UK (the other team members are probably on training camps somewhere in Nepal, I guess! -- watching the Germans Smile )

However, there are 7 players among the top 100 who have not marked their nationality in their profile, like WhiteTrain, br'er rabitt, BR 6/8III etc Confused

And then there are some players with 2 accounts among the top 100.

How interesting! In case you want more statistics -- I posted some in the statistics thread

staycool
      
Pages (5): [ «  <  1  2  3  4  5  >  » ]     
Sujet précédent:2nd tournament - 4th round
Sujet suivant:strategie against blocking ?
Aller au forum: