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onyx puffin LOL
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The FUSION Cup is coming Tue, 03 February 2015 15:45
The FUSION CUP is coming!

So after being asked, are we having a FUSION Cup this year? I realized I need to get word out. Indeed there will be a FUSION Cup this year. Due to League, and the Asia & Swiss Tournaments, it was decided the time for FUSION Cup would begin in middle of March.

The FUSION CUP is our other Team tournament besides Nation's Cup that we do through the year. It strives to be different from Nation's Cup in two ways: It has other maps besides US, and we ask the team make-up to be different from Nation's Cup in that no one is to be on your team who is on your nation's cup team.
As we have 6 weeks, I suggest people start considering who to get as a team together.

UNfortunately, Maps and playing format are not yet finalized, but should be so by the end of this week. I will put a note in this thread when I know.

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 03 February 2015 15:54]

      
dea1
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Tue, 03 February 2015 21:09
onyx puffin wrote on Tue, 03 February 2015 15:45

I suggest people start considering who to get as a team together.



We'd love to, but ...

onyx puffin wrote on Tue, 03 February 2015 15:45


UNfortunately, Maps and playing format are not yet finalized ...


it doesn't make much sense as long as you don't know how many players / which skills you need.


Additional hints welcome Wink
      
Sysyphus
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Wed, 04 February 2015 03:42
Well,

Frankly, all that I read in the forum, all the feedback I had from random conversations with players or with the committee helped me build my opinion:
I don't think players care enough about Fusion to make it exciting.
I don't blame the players at all... Even if we had 50/60 players registered, half of them only come to fill in... The result of this? Unbalanced clashes and low motivation overall = not exciting tournament.

Any minor changes to the rules won't help improving the tournament I fear.

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 04 February 2015 03:44]

      
CIA ommie
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Wed, 04 February 2015 05:55
So, the more sysy and I chat about fusion, the less we seem to come up with. The more sysy chats with other people, the less they seem to come up with. What do people really want for this tourney? We need a change but have no clear agreement on what to do.

My idea tonight: You can't play with anyone you've been on a team with before. (dea/hecki I already know your response)

People have said before that they want a draft or lottery and this would come somewhat close to that. If anything, it would create some very different teams... Wink

I have a stronger desire to see smaller teams and have something like: USA, Europe, Asia/Swiss and Tag. In my opinion, I don't see a huge difference between Asia/Swiss and AAT. Basically the same people would play that anyway...


Simpler is better (in my mind), but what do people really have the desire to compete in?


      
SuperPello
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Wed, 04 February 2015 12:42
My experience about Fusion is totally positive: I've played in team and knew better people like Bulent (always my captain), Enix (Johann), TheBeef. I love to play TAG. And last year I reached QF for the first time.
And I would be happy to build a team this year with other people (Russian Sivorro for example).

Format setup is difficult, we have different ideas. But I'm confident we'll find a solution as usual.


Marco
      
FLOP Hecki
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Wed, 04 February 2015 14:01
ommie schrieb am Wed, 04 February 2015 05:55

My idea tonight: You can't play with anyone you've been on a team with before. (dea/hecki I already know your response)




Okay, here we go. Smile

What if i don't want to share my sweet Little dea with someone else? Smile

And, sorry, i see another problem there:

You remember the last NC ? I tried to create a new german Team. And it took me two week, my last hair and many nerves to find enough players. Cause so many players said "no, thanks" and didn't want to join a new Team - although they had 8, 9 or maybe 10 players. It was really horrible to ask them again and again and again for a little help. I felt really abased.

No, sorry, Megan, i don't want to search for a complete new team if this causes so many problems.
      
Qorlas
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Wed, 04 February 2015 15:27
Probably deciding a format of the competition and then to make the teams via draft could work.

An option could be to ask players for which map they wish to play and then make the draft of the different "roles".

Off course USA map players risk to be left without teams in that way.
      
CIA ommie
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Wed, 04 February 2015 16:39
Oh sweet Hecki, I do remember NC and how lame people can be. Same stuff same stuff - it's quite boring. This would force everyone to play on a new team. I'm not super fond of a draft, as I'd like to have a little control over who I play with. This would force everyone to play on a new team so there wouldn't be the problems you faced in finding a team for this past NC. But whatever...it's just an idea... Rolling Eyes Razz




      
FLOP Hecki
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Wed, 04 February 2015 18:33
Ommie wrote "sweet Hecki". Embarassed I might remember her someday. Laughing Very Happy
      
RUS Sivorro
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Wed, 04 February 2015 18:40
After draft it can be one TRADE round to fix issues "I don't like play with ____".
      
Mr Bean
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Wed, 04 February 2015 19:27
RUS Sivorro wrote on Wed, 04 February 2015 18:40

After draft it can be one TRADE round to fix issues "I don't like play with ____".


Well, nobody likes to play with ... (fill in whoever you want to take a shot at Twisted Evil )
      
DrakeStorm
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Wed, 04 February 2015 21:09
Not sure why being on a "new" team equates to more fun. It just seems like this would cause less people to play, not more.

If there truly isn't a ton of interest in Fusion, then I would say make big changes to the format and use the event to test out ideas. If most people are happy and are going to play again, then I would make smaller changes so as not to scare them off.

One thing I would do, which might be too late is make a post listing all the different map combinations being thrown around (not format changes, just the map), and see which interest people the most. Have each player say if they would play that format and how much they would like it (on scale 0 to 5, where 5 is highest and 0 is I would not play). This has kinda been done, but not in a format that is very concrete.

For example for me:
USA - 1
Europe - 3
Asia - 4
Swiss - 5
USA/Europe - 2
Europe/Asia - 3
Asia/Swiss - 4
TAG USA map - 3
TAG Europe Map - 4
TAG Asia Map - 4
AAT (All Maps) - 5
FUN (USA Map) - 5
etc.
      
RUS_Lexx
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Wed, 04 February 2015 22:14
I like the same format as ommie:
usa
europe
swiss/asia
tag

I'd leave it up to everyone to decide how they want to make their teams
      
onyx puffin LOL
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Wed, 04 February 2015 22:19
The FUSION CUP NEW IDEA:

ommie wrote on Tue, 03 February 2015 23:55


My idea tonight: You can't play with anyone you've been on a team with before. (dea/hecki I already know your response)

People have said before that they want a draft or lottery and this would come somewhat close to that. If anything, it would create some very different teams... Wink



After hearing some desire for a new spark to this, but also wanting to keep a TEAM event, What about people signing up in partners?
This would allow:
a. people who enjoy playing together to be on the same team
b. would add a draft dimension, as we have a draft of the two-somes to create new teams,
c. people will also get to definitely play with someone they like


I am guessing we are looking at a 4 event match USA, EU, TAG, and Asia/Swiss or AAT.

Of course people would have to note if either player is willing to do the Asia/swiss dimension when signing up so one can know that for the draft.

(One other benefit to this is then I can have better identity of team my team is going to beat. We go against Sysy/ommie team, we go against Hecki/dea team.)

Drafting in partners may help people who want to be on same team as two others to draft that partner set. Also, 'captains of teams' could choose whether they want to be a team of 4 or 6.
(Thinking some more, maybe figure some way people could even sign-up in 3s, but teams of 3 would be lower on drafting order of companions.)

Thoughts?

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 04 February 2015 22:59]

      
FLOP Hecki
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Wed, 04 February 2015 23:55
RUS Sivorro schrieb am Wed, 04 February 2015 18:40

After draft it can be one TRADE round to fix issues "I don't like play with ____".



But who the hell should be the first players who have the choice to draft??? I'm sorry but i think this whole Draft Thing won't work in reality.
      
RUS Sivorro
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Thu, 05 February 2015 00:01
Hecki wrote on Thu, 05 February 2015 01:55

RUS Sivorro schrieb am Wed, 04 February 2015 18:40

After draft it can be one TRADE round to fix issues "I don't like play with ____".



But who the hell should be the first players who have the choice to draft??? I'm sorry but i think this whole Draft Thing won't work in reality.


I vote for you, Thomas as an inventor of fast and fair no blocking games Smile
      
FLOP Hecki
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Thu, 05 February 2015 00:10
I think Drafting is really the worst idea in the history of bad ideas. Some questions:

1. Who are the first players who will have the opinion to search for their teams???

2. Do you really want to create some "elite" players?

3. And how do you want to decide who is in this "elite"?

4. And the other players who might be picked up have to say yes to everything what this self-called "elite" decides???

5. What do you think: How is the Feeling of those players if noone wants to pick them??? If you are the last one left?

Sorry, but Drafting sounds really unfair and will crash down the motivation. If you want to kill a good working tournament -> just go on like that.
      
Truckerteller
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Thu, 05 February 2015 08:32
Rather than a draft (which will turn out to be an utter disaster, I agree), I would much prefer a rating cap on 5 player teams. A fairly restrictive rating cap even. That should spread out the top players a bit and make us search for more to include.

US , EU and Asia/Swiss sounds fine to me. I would change TAG US to TAG US/EU/Asia or TAG on any of those 3 maps, choice of the higher ranked team or team with best record.
      
SuperPello
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Thu, 05 February 2015 11:55
Truckerteller wrote on Thu, 05 February 2015 08:32

Rather than a draft (which will turn out to be an utter disaster, I agree), I would much prefer a rating cap on 5 player teams. A fairly restrictive rating cap even. That should spread out the top players a bit and make us search for more to include.



Lol. The rating cap is what I just proposed in the night to Board. I wrote "so if kasi and trucker want to play in the same team they must complete their Team with a low TELO ranked. Me Laughing Laughing Laughing "
      
dea1
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Thu, 05 February 2015 13:23
Rating cap sounds good (especially now that we have TELO) but is close to impossible to implement well (especially for Fusion).

Prove me wrong by answering these 2 questions well:


1) How many players count?

1a) Average of all team members:
OK, we include Kasi's wife and son, they will be allowed to play TAG with me once when Hecki is not available.
Sorry Marco, we can't take you, you are too expensive Wink

1b) Top 3 players of the team:
Assuming, that teams who have more members normally let all of them play their share, this gives a completely wrong picture about the strength of the team.
And sorry Marco again, this time your rating is too low, this time we found 2 players who have just 1 point less than our #3 and you have 10 points less Wink

Luckily Marco is a very nice and talented player, so someone will happily have him on his team regardless of his TELO Wink



2) Which TELO shall be used?

2a) US-2p:
Crap, who cares about the US TELO of someone playing Asia.

2b) Overall TELO:
US results are still predominant here, as probably everyone has more tournament games played on US than on AAT.
And why should my limited skills on AAT lower my rating when I (maybe only?) play TAG?
But wait ... I did play AAT in FC sometimes, and in that case the question is reversed.

2c) TELO US + TELO EU + TELO Swiss + TELO Asia +
TELO BC/1910/MEGA divided by 5:
Hey, where's TAG TELO?
What to do with people who don't have an Asia TELO? Count that as 0 (great, Kasi is now a bargain)?
Same questions as in 2b, just worse.

2d) Measure each player according to the TELO of the map he will probably play:
Does anyone know beforehand what I'll play how often? I don't.


Looking forward to your solutions Twisted Evil
      
FLOP Hecki
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Thu, 05 February 2015 14:29
And i ask it again:

Why always those changes? Why changing a good working tournament?

Last year you did the same with the League. You changed a good working tournament - and it didn't help anything. You searched for more Players, but in the 2nd season of the New League many players were lost again.

I'm fine with the Asia map in FC, but please keep the registration as it is. It won't help you to find more players.
      
Sysyphus
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Thu, 05 February 2015 16:00
Hecki wrote on Thu, 05 February 2015 14:29

And i ask it again:

Why always those changes? Why changing a good working tournament?


Because after 2 years, you can see the limits of a tournament. It did not achieve all its goals except bringing TAG at the table.
You are talking about "elite": the same 2 teams happened to be in final 2 years in a row, and there's a 99% chance that one of them makes it again to the final, and a very good chance both would do it again.
I know it's never been your intent Hecki (your NC history speaks for itself) but GANG and BTB are now pretty darn "elite" on paper.
(While I agree that a collection of names does not necessarily make a good team)

Quote:


Last year you did the same with the League. You changed a good working tournament - and it didn't help anything. You searched for more Players, but in the 2nd season of the New League many players were lost again.


In 2014 we had 81 registrations and 74 players actually playing.
In 2015, we had 69 registrations and so far 67 are playing.
Last season of Old League = 36...


About a cap/draft.

Call the good ol' perceived ranking (Who would you want to have in your Fusion team?) and form pool of players according to the number of teams.
Each pool is worth X. (1, 2, 3, 4, 5...).

Each player who wants to be captain is not counted in the cap.
You can get a discount on a Tag-Team or a pair of players who absolutely wants to play together ((Player A+Player B) - 1 or 2).

Format: If we want teams of 3-5 players, we need 4 matches/clash.
Teams of 4-7, we need 5 matches/clash. I'd argue that bigger teams would make the process harder and more complicated..

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 05 February 2015 16:39]

      
JenAck
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Thu, 05 February 2015 20:47
ommie schrieb am Wed, 04 February 2015 05:55


People have said before that they want a draft or lottery and this would come somewhat close to that. If anything, it would create some very different teams... Wink



sounds funny but i want to play Fusion because of TAG.
And how i can play that if i can`t really make a good conversation?

And of course i want to play with Dom again Wink
      
FLOP Hecki
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Thu, 05 February 2015 22:52
Sysyphus - Pommard schrieb am Thu, 05 February 2015 16:00

I know it's never been your intent Hecki (your NC history speaks for itself) but GANG and BTB are now pretty darn "elite" on paper.


Yes, i know that this sucks to some other players or teams - but look at sports: Serena and Venus Wiliams dominated the Tennis circus for more than one decade; Bayern München, Real Madrid or FC Barcelona are in most of the Champions League finals. Sometimes it happens that some teams or players are stronger than others. But noone would change the soccer rules to destroy Real or Barca. Sometimes you have to deal with it that some teams are better prepared than others. But there's still a chance to beat them. We had so many David-versus-Goliath-surprises in most of the NC seasons. Just deal with it.

Btw.: I had that David role in most of the NC seasons - and it can be fun too.
      
Sysyphus
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Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Fri, 06 February 2015 02:14
Yeah, and in US sports you also have a salary cap and a draft.

So what about we go with teams of 4 or 5 players. 5 players max.
A TAG player can also play a single.

Format (close to last year):
TAG (can alternate or choice of higher ranked team).
USA
Euro
Choice lower ranked team (or rotation if tag alternates) among AAT, Asia, Swiss, US/BC/1910 combo.


A Cap (only if there's strong support for it)

  • Fusion 2014's players are ranked by any player who want to do a perceived ranking. Or even more simple : take Overall 2p TELO. (all 2p TELO mixed).
  • List of players is released.
  • Players are divided into 4, 5, 6...10 pools according to that ranking, or 2p Overall TELO Ranking, and each pool of players is assigned a value.

  • Any player that has never played Fusion can be placed in the bottom pool to incite new players to register. Value can be adjusted for a player in Division A or B in League, but still below "market value".
    Ex: If you manage to get WhiteTrain in Fusion ( Laughing ), we can assign Kasi's value minus discount.

  • Cap is 4 or 5 times (according to the number of players you want in your team) the median (or median + something, like the 6th decile) value of a player.

    [Mis à jour le: Fri, 06 February 2015 05:27]

  •       
    FLOP Hecki
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    Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Sat, 07 February 2015 00:03
    This whole Draft/Cap stuff is, sorry, Bullshit Bingo.

    Then please make a Cap in the next Nations Cup too - and kill that tournament too.
          
    onyx puffin LOL
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    Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Sat, 07 February 2015 16:15
    Hecki wrote on Fri, 06 February 2015 18:03

    This whole Draft/Cap stuff is, sorry, Bullshit Bingo.


    The FUSION CUP

    Just as a note from history, the Fusion Cup replaced the Champions Cup. Originally in the Champions Cup, there was a cap, and that tournament worked fine the first years. But it did become trickier in later years when teams wanted to stay together, so we did away with the cap. (That, and one player could artificially manipulate their number by losing a couple of multis with low ranks and under the cap a team would be.)

    Now I do not know if there will be a Cap (still under discussion), I don't know if there will be a draft (But I begin to doubt that due to reaction, and waning interest in how we accomplish it and people desiring strongly to play together), BUT I do know we will have a great tournament called The FUSION CUP which will be fun for all who get a team they enjoy, and win or lose, it is a good time.

    One final note though to anyone making a team: the cap when used with Champions Cup served as a great guide for teams and to make top players consider who of us rank 100 level players (and there are many of us) they wanted on their team.

    (if you wonder why we are working hard at this now, it is because next week, rules and format will be published officially so we can have one month to set up teams for a Mid-March start.)

    [Mis à jour le: Sat, 07 February 2015 16:20]

          
    FLOP Hecki
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    Re:The FUSION Cup is coming Sun, 08 February 2015 00:13
    I'm fine with Asia, Swiss & Co. - but whoever is in this Group who decides this: Please do not change the Registration (team building System). That would be a big mistake.
          
        
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