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OLE Bats_
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Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Tue, 30 August 2005 22:34
Hello,

I was very pleased of the idea of a "Nations Cup"

Every Nation is represented by its own gamblers.

Yet i&#180;ve read here the announcement of a "Team World United 1", being international.

I used to think, it was a question of nations.

If all the superior cracks - which definitely not includes me - like to match in teams against each other, why not playing an own cup?

So, please leave the Nations Cup for the nations!

German BATS

PS: I&#180;ve already posted this appeal in the german part of this forum, but I would like to have an international discussion, too.
So would you like to tell your opinion?
      
thadd
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Tue, 30 August 2005 23:01
What about the DoW Team?

And so you think that the some who can't create a team because of not having enough players should not take part?

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 31 August 2005 03:19]

      
*player24262
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 00:57
German BATS écrit le Tue, 30 August 2005 22:34

Hello,

I was very pleased of the idea of a "Nations Cup"

Every Nation is represented by its own gamblers.

If all the superior cracks - which definitely not includes me - like to match in teams against each other, why not playing an own cup?

So, please leave the Nations Cup for the nations!

So would you like to tell your opinion?


I'd like to give my opinion, but I'm afraid I don't really understand your problem Rolling Eyes

No problem for me that people whose country has not enough players, can play in one team !

What would be a problem for me, would be a "world united team " with 6 players in the top ....6 Laughing Laughing Laughing

But this team is not more powerful than the others Very Happy

Is it a personnal problem ?

do you like your german teams, with one constituted with players, all in the top 20
and another with players, almost all out of the top 100 ? Laughing Laughing Laughing

what is exactly your problem ????

Tell us and you'll have answers


thadd écrit le Tue, 30 August 2005 23:01

And so you think that the some who can't create a team because of not having enough players should not take part?


I agree with thadd

And if we wouldn't have had enough players in France, I would have enjoyed to find such a team !

kind regards

Léachris

PS : bats, I never saw you on the forum, people tell me you're a kind person, but this posting doesn't seem to be written by a kind person. Then I wonder: Is it your own opinion or do you act on orders ? Rolling Eyes

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 31 August 2005 01:59]

      
Silvertrain
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 01:01
In my eyes the DOW-Team is a special team not to mixed up with the
International team.
Idea of the international team was to collect players from smaller countries. Now I'm very surprised that Optimus is playing for the international team. Long time before I asked him to play in the second german team but he never replied.
My opinion is that the international team should recruit players only from countries which are not able to create a own national team.
If everyone is free to decide which team he likes to play we clearly have a team cup and no national cup. This should be clear
from the beginning.

      
*player39229
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 02:31
Silvertrain wrote on Wed, 31 August 2005 09:01

If everyone is free to decide which team he likes to play we clearly have a team cup and no national cup. This should be clear
from the beginning.

It has been clear from the beginning. The possibility of a non-national team is explicitly allowed for in the rules.

Furthermore, the World United team does consist mostly of players from one or more nations that were unable to field a team alone - last I checked (and I'll have another look in a minute) there were three Canadians in World United, and those players have previously been unable to recruit the extra players needed for a Canadian team. I don't believe World United is primarily a mix of unusually high-rated players (if I think a non-national team has been constructed in order to incorporate strong players despite national boundaries, I will bar that team from competition, as allowed by the rules).

I know from previous discussion (during the Open Tournament) that Jac_ and Optimus are very good friends, and this is likely to be the reason that Optimus has agreed to play for that team. I agree that it would be best for an international team to pick up players who otherwise wouldn't have a chance to play, but I haven't heard anything from such players as yet.
      
*player39229
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 04:32
Okay, I've been gathering some statistics, so that we can have some facts on which to base this discussion.

Currently, the top two teams, on the basis of average rating of the top four players, are the USA (1711.5) and first German (1765.75) teams. The German team has four out of the top 6 players in the tournament, in fact.

World United is the third-strongest team (1694.25). After that, we have the Netherlands (1647.5), second German team (1626.25), third German team (1600), Belgium (1519.25), and Brazil (1427.67).

World United consists of one player who gives no national affiliation but lists German has her language and Chicago as her time zone (and I think she has previously stated that she has too many national ties to choose a nation to give her loyalty to), a German, a Swiss player, two Canadians and a Finn. The Canadians do not number amongst the team's top 4.

(In all of the above, I have left out consideration of team TGV, due to the sheer size of that team. I just haven't had a chance to look up all the ratings for that team yet. The DoW team's rating cannot be calculated, as they are not required to pre-register. Also, one member of the Brazilian team no longer exists - name change, and I don't know what the new name is. Also, I've lost track of the formation order of the German teams, so I'm just ordering them by strength.)

It looks to me like World United is a pretty decent attempt at putting together a team mostly consisting of those from nations which do not have teams. The only real question is, why is Optimus a part of this team, rather than having accepted a place in a German team? Jac_ and Optimus, do you wish to offer a comment?

Unless presented with a very good reason, I do not intend to disallow the World United team at this time. It is possible that I will rule that Optimus cannot play for the World United team, but I want to know what is going on first. I'm no stupid, and I've picked up on a few indicators, but if there is to be grumbling about it, I want to hear exactly what is going on from those who actually know. I can't rule based on gossip. Anybody should feel free to PM me if you think that is best.

BTW, no true appeal can be made in the German forum, because as per the rules, the tournament director, me, is the person who has to decide whether to allow an international team, and I don't speak German. When we get to brass tacks, all the discussion in the world won't affect my decision if I can't understand it. I'm happy to hear appeals in English, though. If I have time, I might even be able to Babelfish the German discussion, but I wouldn't count on it.

Edit: Well, Babelfish didn't do much good. I've seen some bad Babelfish translations in my time, but that one takes the cake. I can read the original German easier.

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 31 August 2005 05:03]

      
*player39229
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 04:36
Dropping Optimus from World United would still leave the team's average strength for the top 4 players at 1683, well above the fourth-seeded team.
      
*player39229
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 04:48
Okay, now I have stats for TGV - average strength of top 4 is 1694, placing them slightly above World United.
      
onyx puffin LOL
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 06:27
What numebr of teams do we have now? Do we need more?
At one point, SKM asked about a possible 2nd USA team.
He seemed to indicate it needed a captain. I have two questions on this:

a. Did it get formed?

b. would it help the ratings issue of USA being so high if I captained a second team and took one or two of the high ranking USA players with the second team?

As it stands now, I may not need to play, but will just sit in the wings as the # 5 or 6 player on that team. So in many ways,it would be more fun to play on a second team if that would help the Nations Cup.
      
*player39229
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 07:10
onyx puffin wrote on Wed, 31 August 2005 14:27

What numebr of teams do we have now? Do we need more?

10 teams currently. I wouldn't say that we need more, though I think we could handle more if more players want to participate.

Quote:

At one point, SKM asked about a possible 2nd USA team.
He seemed to indicate it needed a captain. I have two questions on this:

a. Did it get formed?

b. would it help the ratings issue of USA being so high if I captained a second team and took one or two of the high ranking USA players with the second team?

There is currently only one USA team. If the USA team splits and sends one or more top players to another team, it would give lower-rated teams more of a fighting chance. However, Germany's top team has the six top-rated participants from Germany. If people are playing for national pride, concentrating your best players in one team to take on Germany would seem to be the way to go.

Given that it is the Nation's Cup, I won't disallow very strong single-nation teams. It is certainly legal.

Quote:

As it stands now, I may not need to play, but will just sit in the wings as the # 5 or 6 player on that team. So in many ways,it would be more fun to play on a second team if that would help the Nations Cup.

I do think it is wise for teams to have around 6 players, so as to have somebody available to take over if someone can't play a round, so you may well get to play (though, your are currently your team's number 7). However, the players from large teams may well get to participate more if they split off to form separate teams. If you do decide you would like to form another USA team, you'd better get cracking, as entries close in a few days, and I think you probably want to recruit another four Americans to provide ample reserves.
      
*player24262
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 09:10
tjandjahall écrit le Wed, 31 August 2005 07:10


10 teams currently. I wouldn't say that we need more, though I think we could handle more if more players want to participate.



Hello tjandjahall,as we said it in the first registration posting, we are going to create a second french team, we'll probably register it today.

then 11 teams Wink

I take advantage of the situation to ask you a question.

Is there a rule about what a player must do if the other playr has a bug, is disconnected and can't play ?

thans by advance for your answer.

Léachris


      
erps
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 13:20
Hi everyone,

I think, there are some serious misunderstandings concerning the nations cup.

First of all, nobody translated the rules or some of the interesting posts for the german forum. You can't read much about the nations cup in the german forum, unfortunately! Maybe this is a fault of some english speaking german players (including me).

I believe, that german - BATS has no idea of the participation of an international team or Team DOW (allowed by the rules).
There is no need to assume dishonest motives behind this request. It is a polite question and deserves polite answers.

Second, I doubt that most of the players have serious problems with the participation of Team DOW (we love them all!) or a Team International. Some players like Thadd or Jac have stated their point of view concerning nationality long ago. Personally i've no problem with this at all!

Third, there is another point brought to you by Silvertrain. The formation of team international. There are some irritations, lately. This, i believe, is the (initial) fault of Optimus. The members of Team Germany II (or III, don't know the order, it's Captain Sebbos team) have sought desperately another top player asking Optimus. He declined this offer (an offer he cannot decline...), saying that he will not play the cup. Now he is playing the cup for team international Sad Personally i've no problem him playing with his friend Jac, his fault was not saying this! Now some players are angry at him and this is building up the tension lately. This is wrong, too!

Fifth, let's calm down and play the cup WITH the international team INCLUDING Optimus. This is candyland lately Smile

bye, erps

      
*player24262
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 14:07
sorry bats if I was aggressive Embarassed

But the international team was "in the rules" from the beginning and I thougt every player read the rules before joining !


bassie écrit le Thu, 04 August 2005 20:26


The Nations Cup is a competition for teams with players of the same nationality; the tournament director may allow for transnational teams.

.......

- Transnational teams may be allowed by the TD depending on how many transnational teams register and who are on the team (did I ever say I was impartial?).



sorry again bats, but I say things as I feel them, and when I feel them, never gossiping " in the back"

And let's have fun in the tournament

and .....



Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing ALLEZ LA FRANCE Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
      
Optimus
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 14:11
tjandjahall schrieb am Wed, 31 August 2005 04:32

...
It looks to me like World United is a pretty decent attempt at putting together a team mostly consisting of those from nations which do not have teams. The only real question is, why is Optimus a part of this team, rather than having accepted a place in a German team? Jac_ and Optimus, do you wish to offer a comment?...



First of all, I didn't expect that this matter is such a big deal. I rejected playing in team germany 2 on August 10th. About two weeks later Jac_ asked me if I'd join her "World United Team". And after some persuasion I accepted. BTW, I'm Saxon and there's no Saxon team arround... . AND rek{} called me
reck{} wrote

an honourary non-German! Wink
once Proud


Please correct me if I'm wrong but Germany IS a country of this WORLD, isn't it? Maybe my interpretation of WORLD UNITED was wrong.


@ Sebbo and Silvertrain
I didn't join Team Germany 2 because I didn't want to play the Nations Cup at this time but I changed my mind (it happens some time, check the "masked engineer defeated" Thread). I didn't join the World United Team because there are better players I joined it because there are very NICE players. And after all this I'm so glad I did.


@ Silvertrain
I didn't answer your PM 'cause it was just a poor attempt to make me join Team Germany 2 wich might have worked out with a 6-years-old - no offence - but I'm an adult, so... . You didn't asked anything and I already told Sebbo that I wouldn't join your Team...

I just wanted to have fun in the Cup. But I'm not sure if this is still possible.

Tjandjahall, in case my participation is against the rules I'd respect that.

@ German BATS
It would still be a Nations Cup. Even if the GREAT Optimus is joining the international Team Wink.

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 31 August 2005 14:13]

      
*player97287
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 14:23
Optimus :

Please correct me if I'm wrong but Germany IS a country of this WORLD, isn't it? Maybe my interpretation of WORLD UNITED was wrong.

Make up your mind Wink First you attempt to demonstrate that you're not quite german, then you say that Germany is part of the world...

I think the spirit of the world team was to allow players with no national team to play. So this definitely goes against the spirit. Nevertheless, it's still a game. Don't you people lose sleep over it Cool
      
Optimus
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 14:42
redPEPPER schrieb am Wed, 31 August 2005 14:23

Make up your mind Wink First you attempt to demonstrate that you're not quite german, then you say that Germany is part of the world...

Is it not? Confused The one as nothing to do with the other...

redPEPPER schrieb am Wed, 31 August 2005 14:23

Make up your mind Wink First you attempt to demonstrate that you're not quite german, then you say that Germany is part of the world...

I think the spirit of the world team was to allow players with no national team to play. So this definitely goes against the spirit.


Team Germany 2 was already built when I joined the United Team.


redPEPPER schrieb am Wed, 31 August 2005 14:23

... Nevertheless, it's still a game. Don't you people lose sleep over it Cool


Almost EVERYBODY who wants me out of World United Team quotes that it's just a game and having fun is the most important. So, why are you crying anyway?! I'm sick of it! Evil or Very Mad
      
*player97287
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 16:02
Optimus :

redPEPPER schrieb am Wed, 31 August 2005 14:23

Make up your mind Wink First you attempt to demonstrate that you're not quite german, then you say that Germany is part of the world...

Is it not? Confused The one as nothing to do with the other...

My point was that you don't need the second argument if the first is sound, and vice-versa. Using both is a confession that you know none of these is very strong. But I meant that tongue-in-cheek, keep your shirt on.

Quote:

Almost EVERYBODY who wants me out of World United Team quotes that it's just a game and having fun is the most important. So, why are you crying anyway?! I'm sick of it! Evil or Very Mad

I can answer for myself. I don't care that much if you go with the world, Germany or nobody. It is still a fact that you in the world team goes against the initial spirit of a world team. Doesn't mean we have to go with the initial spirit: this is a game, for fun, and as such we should remain flexible.

Maybe people saying it's only a game means that, despites your position being somewhat irregular, they'd still go with it?

Sheesh...
      
Optimus
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 16:33
Now I just feel unwanted Crying or Very Sad
      
gwen
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 16:46
Poor Optimus !

If nobody wants you, you can always move to Belgium Very Happy .
      
thadd
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 16:51
Hi everyone!!!

I think this NC is getting a wrong spirit. When I initially thought of a World Team groupe, I had several players in my mind who wouldn't be able to creat a group. This was the basic idea of this group; even if there were about 3 german players who wanted to join it.
I never thought that this could be a problem, as I had a more relaxed idea of the NC.

Later I abondoned the idea for several reasons, one was because of the attitude of some players who talked in a wrong way about other groups in the lobby. That was my reason to quit; no more details...

That made me think about it, and I got the impression that something was degenerating...

Let's face it, we have multiple nations playing here, and sure this is the basic idea, but why such a discussion about a german player (which I am too in fact by law). What is so disturbing?
We could have also called our groupe "the European Union Group" with 2 refugies from Canada Wink

If you have personal reasons to be angry at optimus because he declined at a certain time the offer, just be angry. But don't let us get into a discussion about nations and nationality.

And yes, I changed my mind, because Jac asked me very kindly and as said Coubertin:

Important is to take part and not to win!

Let's be Fair play





      
Razamanaz
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 16:53
Hi there !

If it helps come back to Germany 1 as 7th player,youre allways welcome.But its just an idea from me alone.

Ulli
      
Optimus
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 17:11
Thanks Raz, but this has nothing to do with Germany 1 anymore... . I don't want to play there anymore.
Where I wanted to play was the WORLD UNITED TEAM, but several players think it's not right or against the spirit of an international Team...
      
OLE sebbo
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 18:33
Hi!

I think its time to say something to this topic. I did never ever had any problem with an international Team! Thats fact.
I just have had a problem with some...hm... lets call it some kind of german home affairs, thats it! And all persons who are involved, i have contacted personally to check it with them.

Im very sorry about what has going on yesterday in the lobby, it was my fault. It was a fault to start the discussion in the lobby, and it was a fault to answer in this mistakable way to bats posting in the german forum. I must apologize for all that crap.

@Optimus, as i wrote you, i accept your decision. It was simply a big misunderstanding. Please accept my apology.

Lets play the cup and enjoy the game. Communication can be very mistakable, in real life, and much more in here! If someone still wants to discuss something, send me a PM or lets play a private game. It doesnt seem to me the right way, to discuss all things in public.

Greetings
sebbo
      
*player119882
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 19:20
I not sure what all the hubub is about... the point of the tournament is to have fun right? I can't see there's anything unfair an international team, it just give more people a chance to play. Its not like 6 of the top 10 players are trying to make a team just to ensure they win or something...

No offense intended, but you huys that are getting upset about this need to take the game a bit less seriously...

      
thekid
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 19:30
Let the man play. Get a grip people.
      
OLE sebbo
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Wed, 31 August 2005 23:36
One last thing, GermanBATS asked me to translate something for her, so here it comes:

Quote:


Hey guys,
It was definitely not my intention to create such rumble!
I just didnt read the rules completely, that was my mistake. I just didnt recognize the passage concerning the international team!
For this i want to apologize to everybody!
Today ive read the translation of the rules, so everything is clear now.

But:
First of all, i think it shouldnt be a problem to post a question to the forum.
Second, and thats the most important, its just a GAME, not more!
Third, if i ever wrote something, than my own opinion!

I hope i can finalize this whole discussion now.
I wish us all much fun during the Nations Cup!

German BATS
      
*player39229
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Thu, 01 September 2005 02:58
Optimus wrote on Wed, 31 August 2005 22:11

BTW, I'm Saxon and there's no Saxon team arround...

Saxon? Can you expand on what you mean by this? (I'm fairly sure it isn't relevant, but I'm curious.)

Quote:

Tjandjahall, in case my participation is against the rules I'd respect that.

To date, I have just been gathering information. I hope you won't take that the wrong way. I have to be prepared to listen to all points of view before making these sorts of decision (as much as practical).

Here are my current thoughts on the matter...

I cannot and will not force any player to play for any given team. If Optimus declines to play for a German team, that's up to him. If team captains (or other team members) fail to negotiate an agreement with a player they would like to have on their team, that is their problem. I would suggest, though, that it isn't exactly politic to complain about a refusal. It makes the player in question unlikely to ever want to play for that team in the future.

World United is certainly a valid team. Unless presented very good reasons not to, I will permit them to play.

Optimus does not greatly increase the strength of the World United team, having the third-highest rating amongst them. Thus, I do not see World United gain undue advantage from including Optimus. At the same time, Optimus makes World United a six-player team, allowing that team to fully participate even when allowing for possible scheduling difficulties. (I would advise every team to try to include a couple of extra players for this reason.) And in World United, Optimus will be able to play alongside team-mates with whom he feel comfortable.

So, I see advantages to allowing Optimus to play for World United, but I see no effects which are unfair for the opposing teams. Unless presented with good reason to the contrary, I will permit Optimus to play for World United.
      
thadd
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Thu, 01 September 2005 04:25
If I may answer for optimus, Saxon is what Queensland is for you tjandjahall!

http://www.sachsen.de/

in english:

http://www.sachsen.de/en/index.html

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 01 September 2005 04:30]

      
TuS WhiteTrain
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Thu, 01 September 2005 08:31
Good decision tjandjahall Cool
      
Optimus
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Thu, 01 September 2005 15:19
tjandjahall schrieb am Thu, 01 September 2005 02:58

...
So, I see advantages to allowing Optimus to play for World United, but I see no effects which are unfair for the opposing teams. Unless presented with good reason to the contrary, I will permit Optimus to play for World United.


Thank you, TD Very Happy
      
Hawaienne
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Re:Nationen- or Team-Cup??? Mon, 05 September 2005 06:08
Does someone realize that all the time spent reading and
writing all this load of crap (I get trapped into it Confused )
will never be used to play !
      
    
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