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sam1812
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Thu, 07 June 2018 07:14
Two other comments, on specific cards:

Armor Hull Down says, "Place a spare Sandbag on 1 ordered Armor unit's hex after the unit has moved and/or battled."

It doesn't say, "Designate 1 Armor unit when ordering, and place a spare Sandbag on that unit's hex after it has moved and battled." This differs from the old Fortify card, which is played after battle. Could the reason be its new ability to prevent the opponent from playing Combat cards?

And to gheintze's comment about Pull Back ... you play the card after an opponent's unit declares an attack against your unit, so yes, it is played against a specific unit.
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Thu, 07 June 2018 11:31
Sam, if you need consistent rulings for your tournament, you could rule the issues yourself, and make those "house"rulings known to the participants before the tournament. I think that can work for the tournament if an official ruling doesn't come before the WBC.

Maybe my insight in officially ruling for another game with a lot of cards and rules interactions can help for your two main issues.

1) Alongside his command card
I think it's very clear from the rules that a turn consists of several phases.
1 play a command card
2 order units
3 move units
4 battle
5 discard the command card and draw a new one.

You (could) have combat cards that are played during each of those phases. The phrasing "alongside his command card" seems to be clearly referring to combat cards played during phase 1, and not those played during phase 2 (or later). I would take that literally unless an official source states it differently someday.

I have the feeling that you know this is how it is, but you don't like it because you'd like that ruling to impact more cards, amongst others the cards from previous expansions. You not liking it and wanting some other ruling, won't necessarily get you one. I think the rule is clear.
You're always free to house rule it, even for your tournament if you're clear about it towards all participants well before the start of the tournament.


2) second combat card.
To my experience, game developers use their wordings carefully and intentionally.
I think you can split it 3 ways in this case:
Cards played by the unit's controller = cards played for the unit.
Cards played by the opponent of the unit's controller = cards played against the unit.
Cards played by either player = cards played on the unit.
Of course some other words might be used, but I think it's clear they fall in either of the 3 categories.

Now let's read the rule literally (quoting you).
"A second Combat card may not be played against a unit that already had a Combat card played on it this turn." (bolding mine)
I read this as: If anyone already played a card on a unit, the opponent cannot play a card on it. The owner can still play a second card.


That's how I would rule it in absence of an official ruling, just because that's the most literal reading of the rules from my point of view.
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Thu, 07 June 2018 11:39
sam1812 wrote on Thu, 07 June 2018 07:14

Two other comments, on specific cards:

Armor Hull Down says, "Place a spare Sandbag on 1 ordered Armor unit's hex after the unit has moved and/or battled."

It doesn't say, "Designate 1 Armor unit when ordering, and place a spare Sandbag on that unit's hex after it has moved and battled." This differs from the old Fortify card, which is played after battle. Could the reason be its new ability to prevent the opponent from playing Combat cards?

And to gheintze's comment about Pull Back ... you play the card after an opponent's unit declares an attack against your unit, so yes, it is played against a specific unit.

Armor Hull Down: doesn't seem to say when you play the card, only when it does something. Does it mean you play it when it can do something (e.g. after battling)? I think so.

When ordering is clearly phase 2 of the turn to me.
Advantage: it prevents the opponent from playing a combat card against it during combat or movement.
Disadvantage: you have to designate the unit before you see the results of the combat. (the sandbags protect it against a possible counter attack on your unit, while there might be no opposition left nearby after combat.

Remark: I don't have the cards yet, so I'm just commenting based on what I read here.
      
Jon Washington
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Thu, 07 June 2018 20:22
Quit2 wrote on Thu, 07 June 2018 05:39


Armor Hull Down: doesn't seem to say when you play the card (snip)


On the bottom of the card it says, "Play this card alongside your command card."

That's the confusion. It doesn't say you have to choose which unit when you are ordering.

You play this card alongside a command card that orders several armor units. You order those units and start taking your turn. Your opponent wants to play an ambuscade against one of your armor units. You can't play a combat card against a unit already affected by a combat card, but neither you nor your opponent know which armor unit is going to get the sandbag after battling.

You're allowed to play a combat card on an unaffected unit, but nobody knows which unit is affected by the Armor Hull Down until after the battle.

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 07 June 2018 20:23]

      
gheintze
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Fri, 08 June 2018 04:23
My preference is to see the combat cards be underpowered rather than overwhelming (see some of the BattleLore cards, Very Happy).

In addition, these caveats about playing combat cards against units and players that had played combat cards were not included in the original Combat Card rules. Thus, I suspect the intent was only to avoid direct trumping or canceling of combat cards that were just played.

I would prefer to have the opportunity to pull back from or ambush a unit that gets extra dice, as it adds to the strategy in the game. It seems unfair that one player can play a combat card, gain immunity from their opponent's combat cards, and just keep playing combat cards while their opponent can do nothing.

After all, why can a BEL be ambushed, but the equivalent combat card is not subject to an ambuscade...

I anxiously await the official ruling and interpretation. Smile

Geoff
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Fri, 08 June 2018 05:59
Quit2 wrote on Thu, 07 June 2018 05:31

I have the feeling that you know this is how it is, but you don't like it because you'd like that ruling to impact more cards, amongst others the cards from previous expansions. You not liking it and wanting some other ruling, won't necessarily get you one. I think the rule is clear. You (could) have combat cards that are played during each of those phases. The phrasing "alongside his command card" seems to be clearly referring to combat cards played during phase 1, and not those played during phase 2 (or later). I would take that literally unless an official source states it differently someday.


You should know me better than that. This has nothing to do with whether or not I like something. I’m simply trying to figure out what the rules are.

Surprisingly, the “alongside” cards don't have their effects at the beginning of the turn. They're scattered among all phases of the turn: Ordering (Motorcycle Dispatch), after ordering (Return to Duty), movement (Minesweeping), battling (Spotter, Improved Gunnery Sighting), after battling (Armor Hull Down, Foxhole, Camouflage). So there’s no way to determine which cards in the older decks would got “alongside,” if any.

And, as I've noted, we have no guidance on how to apply this rule to the Urban and Winter decks, since the phrase, “alongside his command card,” doesn’t appear anywhere in them.

So, which cards, if any, prevent the opposing player from playing Combat cards against you in the new decks? And in the old decks?
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Fri, 08 June 2018 07:45
I should get the expansion tomorrow. I’ll hold off commenting any further until I read it all so I don’t make things worse.

Sam, I didn’t mean to offend you and I apologize if I have.
      
sam1812
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Fri, 08 June 2018 08:23
No problem. We're all here to have fun, and we're all in this together.

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 08 June 2018 08:24]

      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Fri, 08 June 2018 16:37
For what it's worth, I'm in Gheintzs camp. I was happy with the way the urban and winter combat cards were used. I just don't understand why you now can't counteract a played combat card. What's wrong with neutralizing a played card? If we start making rules for some cards and not others it will get too confusing. I say play them like the urban and winter ones. The combat card's rules should be standardized through all 4 decks.
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Fri, 08 June 2018 20:18
I heard back from Richard Borg and unfortunately there was a small error that didn't get caught before printing.

Armor Hull Down should say, "Play this card on one ordered armor unit." instead of you playing it next to your Command Card.

I'm not sure if this fixes all of the confusion but this error, combined with the following clarification should hopefully settle Combat Cards.

Quote:

The basic and overriding rule is that when a player plays a Combat Card on a unit, the opposition player may not play a combat card against that same unit.

Most Combat Cards are played and only affect one unit and it is easy to understand that the opposition player may not play a Combat Card against that unit.

Some Combat Cards are played along side a player's Command Card and can affect a number of units. In this case, the opposition player may not play a Combat Card against any unit that the Combat Card affected.

There is no limit to the number of Combat Cards a player may play on his or his opponent's turn. A player may play multiple combat cards on the same ordered unit.


So you can play several "benefit" cards on the same unit but if a unit is benefiting from a Combat card you played, your opponent can't negate it with a Combat Card of their own.

Remember that these rules are retroactive so they apply to the Urban and Winter Combat Cards as well.

I hope this helps.
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Fri, 08 June 2018 20:47
gheintze wrote on Thu, 07 June 2018 22:23



After all, why can a BEL be ambushed, but the equivalent combat card is not subject to an ambuscade...

Geoff


This...


LooneyLlama wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 10:37

For what it's worth, I'm in Gheintzs camp. I was happy with the way the urban and winter combat cards were used. I just don't understand why you now can't counteract a played combat card. What's wrong with neutralizing a played card? If we start making rules for some cards and not others it will get too confusing. I say play them like the urban and winter ones. The combat card's rules should be standardized through all 4 decks.


...and this.




      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Fri, 08 June 2018 21:35
rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 14:18



So you can play several "benefit" cards on the same unit but if a unit is benefiting from a Combat card you played, your opponent can't negate it with a Combat Card of their own.

Remember that these rules are retroactive so they apply to the Urban and Winter Combat Cards as well.

I hope this helps.


Hi Jesse,

Thanks for the clarification. Although this helps, it still does not answer the question as to whether cards such as Pull Back, Make a Stand, and Ambuscade are being played on/against the opponent's unit or for your units. As stated in my posts above, I believe that they are not and can be played in response, but it would be nice to have official clarification.

When I have more time, I'll see if your post clarifies my other examples in this thread.

Geoff
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Fri, 08 June 2018 22:36
gheintze wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 12:35

Although this helps, it still does not answer the question as to whether cards such as Pull Back, Make a Stand, and Ambuscade are being played on/against the opponent's unit or for your units. As stated in my posts above, I believe that they are not and can be played in response, but it would be nice to have official clarification.


Somehow I missed this question completely! Can you help me understand what you're asking? I'm confused by the statement "I believe that they are not and can be played in response".

Thanks.
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Fri, 08 June 2018 22:38
Jon Washington wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 11:47

gheintze wrote on Thu, 07 June 2018 22:23



After all, why can a BEL be ambushed, but the equivalent combat card is not subject to an ambuscade...

Geoff


This...


LooneyLlama wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 10:37

For what it's worth, I'm in Gheintzs camp. I was happy with the way the urban and winter combat cards were used. I just don't understand why you now can't counteract a played combat card. What's wrong with neutralizing a played card? If we start making rules for some cards and not others it will get too confusing. I say play them like the urban and winter ones. The combat card's rules should be standardized through all 4 decks.


...and this.


You're welcome to play the Combat Cards however you want but the way they were intended is how the rules outline them with the new Desert and Jungle Combat Cards. All 4 decks are standardized to match the most recent rules.

Why is Ambuscade different than Ambush? Because that was Richard Borg's vision for them. Razz

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 08 June 2018 22:39]

      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Fri, 08 June 2018 22:44
rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 16:36

gheintze wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 12:35

Although this helps, it still does not answer the question as to whether cards such as Pull Back, Make a Stand, and Ambuscade are being played on/against the opponent's unit or for your units. As stated in my posts above, I believe that they are not and can be played in response, but it would be nice to have official clarification.


Somehow I missed this question completely! Can you help me understand what you're asking? I'm confused by the statement "I believe that they are not and can be played in response".

Thanks.


I'm happy to clarify. The question is whether cards such as Fall Back and Make a Stand are played "against" or "on" an opponent's unit or on one of your own units. That is, can you play Fall Back or Make a Stand in response to an attack from a unit enhanced by a combat card.

This has the potential to make things confusing because the same question can be asked about Ambuscade -- is that card played on your unit to give it an extra ability or are you playing against an opponent's unit?
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Fri, 08 June 2018 22:54
gheintze wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 13:44

I'm happy to clarify. The question is whether cards such as Fall Back and Make a Stand are played "against" or "on" an opponent's unit or on one of your own units. That is, can you play Fall Back or Make a Stand in response to an attack from a unit enhanced by a combat card.

This has the potential to make things confusing because the same question can be asked about Ambuscade -- is that card played on your unit to give it an extra ability or are you playing against an opponent's unit?


The overall idea is that you can't cancel someone else's Combat Card with your own. So it doesn't matter who the card is played on...if it would cancel the effect of a Combat Card your opponent played, it can't be done.

So in your scenario, you would not be able to play those card in response to an attack enhanced by a combat card, but you could use the cards against a normal Their Finest Hour or something like that.

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 08 June 2018 22:56]

      
Jon Washington
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Fri, 08 June 2018 22:55
I'm still curious about the turn sequence question. For example, the cards where the effect happens after battling. Do you have to point out that unit when ordering?

If your opponent plays a combat card against a unit you had planned to use a combat card on after battling, can you no longer play your card on a unit your opponent has initially played something against?
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Fri, 08 June 2018 23:17
Jon Washington wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 13:55

I'm still curious about the turn sequence question. For example, the cards where the effect happens after battling. Do you have to point out that unit when ordering?

If your opponent plays a combat card against a unit you had planned to use a combat card on after battling, can you no longer play your card on a unit your opponent has initially played something against?


What situation are you thinking about?
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Fri, 08 June 2018 23:34
rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 17:17

Jon Washington wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 13:55

I'm still curious about the turn sequence question. For example, the cards where the effect happens after battling. Do you have to point out that unit when ordering?

If your opponent plays a combat card against a unit you had planned to use a combat card on after battling, can you no longer play your card on a unit your opponent has initially played something against?


What situation are you thinking about?


Now that I've looked at the card more, I think I figured it out. I guess was thinking of the earlier thing with the armor hull down. I guess you have to designate that unit when ordering then it's immune from a card being played against it.

Or you want to play a reposition on a mobile artillery. It moves, opponent plays a spider hole against it. Now it can't reposition because it's had a card played against it?
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sat, 09 June 2018 01:01
Jon Washington wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 14:34

rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 17:17

Jon Washington wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 13:55

I'm still curious about the turn sequence question. For example, the cards where the effect happens after battling. Do you have to point out that unit when ordering?

If your opponent plays a combat card against a unit you had planned to use a combat card on after battling, can you no longer play your card on a unit your opponent has initially played something against?


What situation are you thinking about?


Now that I've looked at the card more, I think I figured it out. I guess was thinking of the earlier thing with the armor hull down. I guess you have to designate that unit when ordering then it's immune from a card being played against it.


No, with Armor Hull Down the card text should say that you play it on an armor unit instead of next to your Command Card. This was an error that slipped through.

Quote:

Or you want to play a reposition on a mobile artillery. It moves, opponent plays a spider hole against it. Now it can't reposition because it's had a card played against it?



This wouldn't be possible. Once you play Reposition on the Artillery, you've protected your unit from a Spider Hole because your opponent can't play a Combat Card against a unit that was affected by a Combat Card.
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sat, 09 June 2018 04:10
rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 19:01

This wouldn't be possible. Once you play Reposition on the Artillery, you've protected your unit from a Spider Hole because your opponent can't play a Combat Card against a unit that was affected by a Combat Card.



The reposition card in the Jungle deck says, "Play this card after battling with an artillery unit."

The spider hole would be played pre-battle.

[Mis à jour le: Sat, 09 June 2018 04:11]

      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sat, 09 June 2018 05:54
Thanks for the clarifications Jesse. I'm going to attempt to summarize your guidance and answer all of the questions in this thread here. Perhaps, Richard or you can approve this and we can put this discussion to rest. Smile

Clarifications from Richard:
The basic and overriding rule is that when a player plays a Combat Card on a unit, the opposition player may not play a combat card against that same unit.

Most Combat Cards are played and only affect one unit and it is easy to understand that the opposition player may not play a Combat Card against that unit.

Some Combat Cards are played along side a player's Command Card and can affect a number of units. In this case, the opposition player may not play a Combat Card against any unit that the Combat Card affected.

There is no limit to the number of Combat Cards a player may play on his or his opponent's turn. A player [edit: the player controlling the ordered unit] may play multiple combat cards on the same ordered unit.

Armor Hull Down should say, "Play this card on one ordered armor unit" instead of playing it next to your Command Card.


Specific Questions:
1) Can Ambush or Ambuscade be played against Spider Hole? No, because Ambush cannot be played on your turn. Ambuscade cannot be played against units benefiting from a combat card (the spider hole unit).

2) If a card is to be played when ordering units, is that considered to be "alongside your Command card," or must that specific wording appear on the card? (I would say that the ordering phase is still "alongside.")

Yes, and this prevents your opponent from playing a combat card during this phase of their turn.

3) If you have no relevant units, can you play a card like "Improved Gunnery Sighting" alongside your Command card to prevent the opponent from the opponent from playing any Combat cards, even though your Combat card orders no units? (If we use Section cards as a precedent, then yes. If we use Ambush as a precedent, then no. I suspect that the answer is the latter, but considering that Axis has no artilleries in 5 of the 6 scenarios, and neither side has any artilleries in 3 of them, those cards would seem to be pretty underpowered.)

I think the answer to this is no -- as no units are affected, there is no immunity provided. However, as Clexton pointed out, this card probably should be played as jungle warfare if you don't have any artillery.

4) Two Combat cards can't be played against the same unit on a single turn, but it seems to be legal to play multiple Combat cards on a single unit, right? (For example, Jungle Warfare Special Action kills a unit, then you play Heat of Battle to get a second attack, and even follow that with Foxhole).

Yes, this is allowed.

5) If a player plays a combat card alongside his command card, can his opponent still play combat cards? It appears that this is the case (other than Sandstorm below), as long as they do not affect units enhanced by the combat card and as long as they are not played in response to a unit enhanced by a combat card.

6) Armor Hull Down has been clarified. It is now played when an unit is ordered, so the unit that will receive the benefit is known at that point and cannot be affected by an opposing combat card.

7) Cards such as Ambuscade, Make a Stand, and Pull Back cannot be played when your unit is targeted by a unit that had a combat card played on it.

8 ) Sandstorm cannot be played when your opponent played a combat card alongside his command card.

9) Out of Ammo and Rough Ground cannot be played on units that are enhanced by a combat card (including Armor Hull Down).

These still need clarification:

1. Which units are protected by Return to Duty? All ordered infantry, only those that receive figures, or none (perhaps because the card is already resolved).

2) Which units are protected by Motorcycle Dispatch? Does the extra unit need to be designated so that it can be immune? Or is this simply an extra order and all units may be affected by an opposing combat card?

I hope this is an acceptable summary of the discussion. Please let me know if I missed anything and I'll add further clarifications here as they are posted.

Geoff

      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sat, 09 June 2018 06:41
.
Ras (and Richard), thank you for the clarification on Armor Hull Down. This goes a long way toward clarifying some of the nagging questions. And gheintze, thank you for summarizing.

Just to double-check, is Armor Hull Down says, "Place a spare Sandbag on 1 ordered Armor unit's hex after the unit has moved and/or battled." Similarly, the Reposition card says, "One ordered Artillery unit may move up to 3 hexes after battling...", and that card has always been played after the unit has battled.

Is Armor Hull Down supposed to be played when ordering the tank, or after the tank has battled? Consistency would suggest the latter.


Also ...
Quote:

Remember that these rules are retroactive so they apply to the Urban and Winter Combat Cards as well.

Which cards in the Urban and Winter Combat decks are now played alongside the command card?

And Richard write:
Quote:

Some Combat Cards are played along side a player's Command Card and can affect a number of units. In this case, the opposition player may not play a Combat Card against any unit that the Combat Card affected.

But the rule sheet specifies, "A Combat card may not be played against a player that has played a Combat card alongside his command card on that turn."

So if I play Assault Center ordering four infantries and an armor, the rule sheet that was printed and is being sold around the world says that the tank is also protected against Combat cards, while Richard's statement implies that the tank is not protected. If Richard's statement is meant to override the printed rule, then how will the players be informed? Perhaps an erratum be posted on a persistent thread? (Personally, I think it would avoid awkward situations for players if the printed rule is retained, regardless of what was originally intended, and certainly regardless of whatever way I might prefer the rule to be.)

I also would suggest posting an erratum for Armor Hull Down.

Thanks, again. We're getting through the fog (or the sandstorm).
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sun, 10 June 2018 02:30
gheintze wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 20:54

These still need clarification:

1. Which units are protected by Return to Duty? All ordered infantry, only those that receive figures, or none (perhaps because the card is already resolved).


This card says it is played next to your Command Card. Richard said that "the opposition player may not play a Combat Card against any unit that the Combat Card affected."

So the units that are healed (affected) by the card, are immune to the effects of a Combat card played by your opponent.

gheintze wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 20:54


2) Which units are protected by Motorcycle Dispatch? Does the extra unit need to be designated so that it can be immune? Or is this simply an extra order and all units may be affected by an opposing combat card?


Same as above. The card is played with the Command card, so the unit affected by the extra order is protected.
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sun, 10 June 2018 03:19
I'm having trouble understanding these rulings. If the rules are this complicated and specific to individual cards, then it should have been spelled out in detail on the rules.

The combat cards in question heal units -- thus playing another combat card on them does not undo the card.

Likewise, the other card gives an extra order. It's quite the leap to say -- specify which unit has received the extra order and it's now immune to combat cards.

I can't believe that the combat cards are supposed to be this powerful.

[Mis à jour le: Sun, 10 June 2018 03:53]

      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sun, 10 June 2018 03:31
sam1812 wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 21:41


Just to double-check, is Armor Hull Down says, "Place a spare Sandbag on 1 ordered Armor unit's hex after the unit has moved and/or battled." Similarly, the Reposition card says, "One ordered Artillery unit may move up to 3 hexes after battling...", and that card has always been played after the unit has battled.

Is Armor Hull Down supposed to be played when ordering the tank, or after the tank has battled? Consistency would suggest the latter.


My memory is that you play the card when it says you take the action. Therefor, if it says "after the unit has moved/battled" it is played after the unit is done with the actions it is taking that turn.

sam1812 wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 21:41


Which cards in the Urban and Winter Combat decks are now played alongside the command card?


Does it matter? Basically, if a unit is impacted by the card played, that unit is protected from your opponent playing a different Combat Card on it. For those previous cards, it doesn't matter when it's played since they don't specify.

sam1812 wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 21:41

And Richard write:
Quote:

Some Combat Cards are played along side a player's Command Card and can affect a number of units. In this case, the opposition player may not play a Combat Card against any unit that the Combat Card affected.

But the rule sheet specifies, "A Combat card may not be played against a player that has played a Combat card alongside his command card on that turn."

So if I play Assault Center ordering four infantries and an armor, the rule sheet that was printed and is being sold around the world says that the tank is also protected against Combat cards, while Richard's statement implies that the tank is not protected.


Maybe I'm missing something...but I don't see anything in your example that would be protecting any of the units being ordered. Are you saying that you played "Armor Hull Down" in this example? If that's the case I don't understand your question. Maybe you can clarify.

sam1812 wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 21:41

If Richard's statement is meant to override the printed rule, then how will the players be informed? Perhaps an erratum be posted on a persistent thread? (Personally, I think it would avoid awkward situations for players if the printed rule is retained, regardless of what was originally intended, and certainly regardless of whatever way I might prefer the rule to be.)

I also would suggest posting an erratum for Armor Hull Down.


I'll be posting a thread once the dust has settled on this matter to clarify things a bit and I'll make it sticky. Unless I hear otherwise, we will be using the rules as Richard intended.
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sun, 10 June 2018 03:58
gheintze wrote on Sat, 09 June 2018 18:19

I'm having trouble understanding these rulings. If the rules are this complicated and specific to individual cards, then it should have been spelled out in detail on the rules.

The combat cards in question heal units -- thus playing another combat card on them does not undo the card.


How does this make the Combat Cards more complicated? It would be more complicated if individual cards affected units at different times and some protected the affected units while others don't because of when they're played or the effect they have.

gheintze wrote on Sat, 09 June 2018 18:19

Likewise, the other card gives an extra order. It's quite the leap to say -- specific which unit has received the extra order and it's now immune to combat cards.


How would this order be any different than when we specify the On the Move orders we give out all the time in Breakthrough maps using that deck?

Richard has made it quite clear that the unit(s) that are affected by the Combat Card are protected from another Combat Card played on it from the opponent.

[Mis à jour le: Sun, 10 June 2018 05:25]

      
Jon Washington
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sun, 10 June 2018 06:38
I think being forced to choose which unit out of several gets the immunity is the problem. "I'm ordering 5 units and this one is the special one that is affected by my combat card." Ugh

And back to my question. What about the cards that say "play this card after battling?" If your opponent plays a card on a unit you were planning to play an "after battle" card on, now you can't play it?

If I want to play a reposition, it says move artillery after battle. If my opponent plays an ambush from the regular deck, I can battle then play my reposition. But if it's an abuscade from the combat deck I can't because the unit has already had a combat card played on it? I know you answered before the difference between the ambush and ambuscade in these cases, but "because Richard says so" is not really satisfying. lol

I won't be using this rule. I'll be playing that anyone can use a combat card anytime. It worked perfectly with the urban and winter cards. Why fix it if it ain't broke?
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sun, 10 June 2018 07:15
rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 09 June 2018 21:31

((Regarding Armor Hull Down)) My memory is that you play the card when it says you take the action. Therefor, if it says "after the unit has moved/battled" it is played after the unit is done with the actions it is taking that turn.

So, you're saying, play it after the tank has moved and battled. That’s what I thought, but gheintze’s summary was saying something different.

You were right to be confused about my question that you requested clarification on: I left out 2 critical words, which I’ll underline here. My question was intended to be, “If I play Assault Center and Foxhole ordering four infantries and an armor, the rule sheet that was printed and is being sold around the world says that the armor is also protected against Combat cards, because none can be used against the player, while Richard's statement implies that the armor is not protected. Can the opponent play a Combat card against my armor?”

You wrote:

sam1812 wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 21:41

Which cards in the Urban and Winter Combat decks are now played alongside the command card?

Does it matter? Basically, if a unit is impacted by the card played, that unit is protected from your opponent playing a different Combat Card on it. For those previous cards, it doesn't matter when it's played since they don't specify.

The “alongside” rule was written into the J&D expansion for some reason. Foxhole and Camouflage both announce at the start of the turn which units will be protected after battling, and the “alongside” rule protects those units against Ambuscades, etc., during the turn, as well.

Additionally, in the Urban deck, Air Bombardment, Armor Factory, and Reinforcements are arguably used before ordering units. Are they played “alongside” the command card?

You wrote:

I'll be posting a thread once the dust has settled on this matter to clarify things a bit and I'll make it sticky. Unless I hear otherwise, we will be using the rules as Richard intended.

Wonderful! Thank you.

And in case I haven’t said it in the past couple of days, I appreciate everything you do to help facilitate this wonderful game.
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sun, 10 June 2018 08:25
I personally have tossed the rulebook and am working form this answer Richard gave:

rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 05 June 2018 01:31


Richard's clarification:

Quote:

The basic and overriding rule is that when a player plays a Combat Card on a unit, the opposition player may not play a combat card against that same unit.

Most Combat Cards are played and only affect one unit and it is easy to understand that the opposition player may not play a Combat Card against that unit.

Some Combat Cards are played along side a player's Command Card and can affect a number of units. In this case, the opposition player may not play a Combat Card against any unit that the Combat Card affected.

There is no limit to the number of Combat Cards a player may play on his or his opponent's turn. A player may play multiple combat cards on the same ordered unit.




This settles a lot of questions, but still leaves some open:
about cards that affect a chosen unit among others (armor hull down and motorcycle dispatch for instance) is the card "protecting" all of those units or only the one.
And which has preference for playing cards?: The timespace between declaring an attack and throwing the dice now has several cards that both players can play. I would say the attacker, but the rules do not say anything about this I feel.


[Mis à jour le: Sun, 10 June 2018 08:25]

      
LooneyLlama
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sun, 10 June 2018 16:27
This discussion is getting ridiculous. Why would anyone want to use these cards with this much discussion over the rules on how they're played? And here I thought this was an elegant game with basic easy to learn rules.
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sun, 10 June 2018 17:40
sam1812 wrote on Sat, 09 June 2018 22:15

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 09 June 2018 21:31

((Regarding Armor Hull Down)) My memory is that you play the card when it says you take the action. Therefor, if it says "after the unit has moved/battled" it is played after the unit is done with the actions it is taking that turn.

So, you're saying, play it after the tank has moved and battled. That’s what I thought, but gheintze’s summary was saying something different.


Or after the tank just moves, if the player decides to simply reposition an Armor unit.

sam1812 wrote on Sat, 09 June 2018 22:15

You were right to be confused about my question that you requested clarification on: I left out 2 critical words, which I’ll underline here. My question was intended to be, “If I play Assault Center and Foxhole ordering four infantries and an armor, the rule sheet that was printed and is being sold around the world says that the armor is also protected against Combat cards, because none can be used against the player, while Richard's statement implies that the armor is not protected. Can the opponent play a Combat card against my armor?”


The Armor would not be protected.

sam1812 wrote on Sat, 09 June 2018 22:15

you said

]
sam1812 wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 21:41

Which cards in the Urban and Winter Combat decks are now played alongside the command card?

Does it matter? Basically, if a unit is impacted by the card played, that unit is protected from your opponent playing a different Combat Card on it. For those previous cards, it doesn't matter when it's played since they don't specify.

The “alongside” rule was written into the J&D expansion for some reason. Foxhole and Camouflage both announce at the start of the turn which units will be protected after battling, and the “alongside” rule protects those units against Ambuscades, etc., during the turn, as well.

Additionally, in the Urban deck, Air Bombardment, Armor Factory, and Reinforcements are arguably used before ordering units. Are they played “alongside” the command card?


Again, the main thing to remember is that if one of your unit is affected by the card, it is protected from opponent Combat Cards.

[Mis à jour le: Sun, 10 June 2018 17:42]

      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sun, 10 June 2018 18:17
Jeronimon wrote on Sat, 09 June 2018 23:25

This settles a lot of questions, but still leaves some open:
about cards that affect a chosen unit among others (armor hull down and motorcycle dispatch for instance) is the card "protecting" all of those units or only the one.


I don't understand why this would be open still...

Quote:

And which has preference for playing cards?: The timespace between declaring an attack and throwing the dice now has several cards that both players can play. I would say the attacker, but the rules do not say anything about this I feel.


That's an interesting question. What card(s) are you thinking of?
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sun, 10 June 2018 20:17
LooneyLlama wrote on Sun, 10 June 2018 07:27

This discussion is getting ridiculous. Why would anyone want to use these cards with this much discussion over the rules on how they're played? And here I thought this was an elegant game with basic easy to learn rules.


Richard’s goal is always (and has always been) to keep this game simple and accessible. The Combat Cards are no different. The presence of discussion doesn’t mean it’s complex, it just means that we might not have done as good as we would have liked making the rules clear.
      
Jon Washington
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sun, 10 June 2018 21:47
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 10 June 2018 12:17



Quote:

And which has preference for playing cards?: The timespace between declaring an attack and throwing the dice now has several cards that both players can play. I would say the attacker, but the rules do not say anything about this I feel.


That's an interesting question. What card(s) are you thinking of?


This was my question too I think. Some of the cards say, "play this card after battling," like Reposition. If your opponent plays a combat card against a unit that you had planned to reposition, are you now not allowed to play your card "after battling" because a combat cards has been played against the unit? That gives the defender the iniative to take away your ability to play a card after battling.

      
Sundown Kid
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Mon, 11 June 2018 04:07
Jon Washington wrote on Sun, 10 June 2018 15:47


This was my question too I think. Some of the cards say, "play this card after battling," like Reposition. If your opponent plays a combat card against a unit that you had planned to reposition, are you now not allowed to play your card "after battling" because a combat cards has been played against the unit? That gives the defender the iniative to take away your ability to play a card after battling.



I don't think that's an issue, Jon. The rule does not limit the combat cards that you play on your own units during your turn. Doesn't matter if your opponent plays one that affects your unit. You may still play another combat card on that unit.

It only means that you can't play a combat card on one of your opponent's units when they have played one that affects that unit.

      
gheintze
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Mon, 11 June 2018 05:28
rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 09 June 2018 21:58

gheintze wrote on Sat, 09 June 2018 18:19

I'm having trouble understanding these rulings. If the rules are this complicated and specific to individual cards, then it should have been spelled out in detail on the rules.

The combat cards in question heal units -- thus playing another combat card on them does not undo the card.


How does this make the Combat Cards more complicated? It would be more complicated if individual cards affected units at different times and some protected the affected units while others don't because of when they're played or the effect they have.

gheintze wrote on Sat, 09 June 2018 18:19

Likewise, the other card gives an extra order. It's quite the leap to say -- specify which unit has received the extra order and it's now immune to combat cards.


How would this order be any different than when we specify the On the Move orders we give out all the time in Breakthrough maps using that deck?

Richard has made it quite clear that the unit(s) that are affected by the Combat Card are protected from another Combat Card played on it from the opponent.


The confusion and frustration during this discussion is for a few reasons.

1) The new rules change the existing rules for some reason that is not apparent to the fanbase. Making rules retroactive is a problem because not everyone who has the previous expansions will have the new rules or be aware of them. Thus, it is inevitable that there will now be two ways in which the game is played. Perhaps explaining the reasoning for the change would help experienced players to understand the intent. In addition, if the intent of the rules is known, they can be interpreted appropriately to apply to situations not delineated in the rules.

2) Subsequent explanations of the rules seem fiddly, which is not the norm for Memoir '44. As you stated, Richard's intent is to keep the game simple to understand and accessible. However, specifying 1 of several units ordered to be immune to subsequent cards seems inelegant.

3) The rules were apparently incorrectly written or unclear in the new expansion, and a card was misprinted. This is only adding to the confusion.

4) Finally, the spirit of the new rules seems to contradict the spirit of the old rules. For example, it is not the norm that you are unable to play a card under certain circumstances or unable to play a card against a certain unit. Thus, the rules seem strange to veteran players. In addition, it is unusual in M'44 for you to have to remember the plays that came before, as they don't often apply to previous battles/cards. But that isn't the case with these rulesets.

Nevertheless, this appears to be the official rules and I'm glad that you are working to clarify them and release and updated ruleset/FAQ. Thank you for doing so.

May I suggest that this document is edited/reviewed by veteran players before its release to ensure that it is clear and covers most of the situations?

Geoff
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Mon, 11 June 2018 07:05
gheintze wrote on Sun, 10 June 2018 20:28

Nevertheless, this appears to be the official rules and I'm glad that you are working to clarify them and release and updated ruleset/FAQ. Thank you for doing so.

May I suggest that this document is edited/reviewed by veteran players before its release to ensure that it is clear and covers most of the situations?

Geoff



Just to be clear, I will not be updating the FAQ or creating a new document for this. What I said is that I will create a sticky thread with these rule clarifications so that players can find them easily.
      
Jon Washington
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Mon, 11 June 2018 07:42
Sundown Kid wrote on Sun, 10 June 2018 22:07

I don't think that's an issue, Jon. The rule does not limit the combat cards that you play on your own units during your turn. Doesn't matter if your opponent plays one that affects your unit. You may still play another combat card on that unit.

It only means that you can't play a combat card on one of your opponent's units when they have played one that affects that unit.


Quote:

"The basic and overriding rule is that when a player plays a Combat Card on a unit, the opposition player may not play a combat card against that same unit.

Most Combat Cards are played and only affect one unit and it is easy to understand that the opposition player may not play a Combat Card against that unit.

Some Combat Cards are played along side a player's Command Card and can affect a number of units. In this case, the opposition player may not play a Combat Card against any unit that the Combat Card affected.

There is no limit to the number of Combat Cards a player may play on his or his opponent's turn. A player may play multiple combat cards on the same ordered unit."


This is Richard's clarification. It doesn't address when an opposing player plays a card against you first. I'm not assuming anything.


      
gheintze
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Mon, 11 June 2018 12:23
I hope that you reconsider making a specific FAQ/rules clarification/errata to represent the official rules on combat cards, as it is more likely that players will find the changes that way.
      
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