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onyx puffin LOL
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Messages: 1768
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January 2005
starter set-up in multi tournament play Tue, 02 June 2020 03:13
So today when group 1 was playing, it was pointed out by the player in position 5 (E) how the current 'master order of play' seems to set-up with a potential unfair advantage and disadvantage.

Basically, since first games can seem of high priority as it sets up point scoring, persons in position and 2 have distinct early advantage in the current order of play for the first two games, and players in positions 3 and 5 have distinct disadvantages. (difference between rank 2 and 3 players is often negligible for such a disparity in current set-up.)

Current order of play is as follows:
      GAME 1,  2,  3,  4,  5
Starter 1. A,  B,  C,  D,  E
Starter 2. B,  D,  A,  E,  C
Starter 3. C,  E,  B,  A,  D
Starter 4. D,  A,  E,  C,  B
Starter 5. E,  C,  D,  B,  A

If you look at starting position totals of games 1 & 2, you have
player A=5; B=3; C=8; D=6; E=8.

If one would do a simple move of current game 5 to be the 2nd game, one could see an evening out of the starter disparity of early games. This would be:

      GAME 1,  2,  3,  4,  5
Starter 1. A,  E,  B,  C,  D, 
Starter 2. B,  C,  D,  A,  E, 
Starter 3. C,  D,  E,  B,  A, 
Starter 4. D,  B,  A,  E,  C, 
Starter 5. E,  A,  C,  D,  B, 

Then starting position totals of games 1 & 2, would be:
player A=6; B=7; C=7; D=6; E=6.

Understand, it is great that all players are in every starter position over the series. But this concern was raised, so I bring it to discussion.

What are some of your thoughts on this issue/concern?

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 02 June 2020 03:28]

      
onyx puffin LOL
Senior Member

Messages: 1768
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January 2005
Re:starter set-up in multi tournament play Tue, 02 June 2020 03:24
My thoughts upon more reflection:

I think the point of unfair starting is a good one. Surely in our match, player 1 had a top two finishing spot lined up before game 5. However, there was a three-way battle for the second spot. I would have loved to have a better starting position in that last game knowing what needed to occur.
Thus, I am now wondering if I might not rather have the start in the last game when starting positions are probably the most crucial. (Yet even as I say that, I did win from the fourth position.)


For those unsure how much of an advantage starter positions are, remember positions can impact game as far as number of turns.
Case in point, in last game of group 1, since player 3 went out, players 4 & 5 had one less turn to score points.

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 02 June 2020 03:29]

      
Photios
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January 2011
Re:starter set-up in multi tournament play Tue, 02 June 2020 08:44
Judging from my own experience in our group, starting 1st in last game might have helped me to clinch 2nd position, as I had finished my tix and was able to block cannonade at Houston, which proved to be a crucial move. Plus he was playing 4th and Kotjara last, which gave me an advantage.
Generally speaking, Dale's approach is valid: it would be good to have the same or close position index after the initial 3 (not 2) games, because indeed this is when things start clarifying. In EU, last game didn't have any meaning for the 1st place (but only because someone was stupid enough to draw cards instead of finishing his tix; yes, that was me & Stas was "lucky" enough to finish it early enough and clinch 1st place). Anyway, for the sake of mathematical "fairness", I would agree with a change in order.
However, I agree mostly with Sysyphus in Discord that order would not matter much in multis. Actually his statistics in 2ers is interesting; I would be sure that 1st place in 2ers matters most. However, in our tie with Koel, we both won only one game as starter! In all other games, the 2nd player won. In my 6-0 loss against lirex I found myself in 4 games to hope in ticket fiending (and none came as expected). I only got longest once and lost even there... Obviously, Tim was just as lucky as Stas!
Let me also remind that in java heroic era, it was random start and people were trying to avoid playing after certain players and tried to gain advantage by getting in faster than others. So it's much better in steam now.

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 02 June 2020 12:26]

      
Photios
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January 2011
Re:starter set-up in multi tournament play Tue, 02 June 2020 11:19
Current setting favors B overall. Here is the "position index" after 2, 3 games and overall (I'm just adding positions 1 through 5)

overall inevitably all 15
after 2 games: B3 / A4 / D6 / C8 / E9 (this is unfair indeed, but too early to gain advantage)
after 3 games: B6 / A8 / C9 / D,E11

so B is indeed favored (accepting that starting position plays a role) & E is indeed at a disadvantage after 3 games.

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 02 June 2020 12:30]

      
Photios
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January 2011
Re:starter set-up in multi tournament play Tue, 02 June 2020 11:36
An attempt to device a more fair schedule avoiding repetitions of player sequence to the first 3 games (impossible to avoid it in the last 2 games; be my guest and try) & being more fair in initial 3 games

Games / sequence / position index A-B-C-D-E
1 / A-B-C-D-E / 1-2-3-4-5
2 / C-E-D-B-A / 6-6-4-7-7 (C favored, but too early to gain adv)
3 / B-D-A-E-C / 9-7-9-9-11 (E disadvantaged relevant to B only; so E starts 1st in next game)
4 / E-C-B-A-D / 13-10-11-14-12 (D disadvantaged especially relevant B; but starts 1st in crucial last game)
5 / D-A-E-C-B / 15ALL

Overall B is slightly favored, but one player is inevitable to be favored in any possible scenario.
Also in last game inevitably player sequences are repeated. Not possible to do otherwise.

If anybody liked that, organizer may use it in subsequent multis. If not, organizer decides format and players decide if they want to participate. After stating participation, no whining allowed...

(I admit that I qualified not because I played better, but because I had LA-NY & LA-Mia in both game 2 & 3 and everybody were kind enough to avoid blocking me, while I was a pervert blocker in last game. Please block me ferociously in SFs; I deserve it)

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 02 June 2020 12:34]

      
scorps4
Senior Member
Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2015

Messages: 183
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October 2005
Re:starter set-up in multi tournament play Tue, 02 June 2020 17:21
Reading these posts, I ponder the following:

"seems to set up," "one could see," "might have helped me," "one player is inevitable to be favored in any possible scenario,"

There is the assumption that a starting position automatically is an advantage in 5er. And conclusions are offered on the basis of accepting the premise.

My completely unschooled opinion is that the multiple variables - e.g. tix, starting colors, colors available during the course of play; when la-pho is played Wink , how much fiending is done (alfred ended one of our games with 10 trains, one color card, 6 completed tix, mainly east, and won the game); who decides to block and when, etc. etc. - in play in a 5er far more greatly offset any perceived advantage in starting position.

I simply don't agree that the starting position in this fun competition is as vital as it's being made out to be. And every single player is given the opportunity for each starting position. Adapt, compete, adjust, recognize, strategize - isn't this all part of the reason we play this game?

Cheers Smile

Ross

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 02 June 2020 17:50]

      
RUS Sivorro
Senior Member
Vainqueur Multi-Player Winter Championship AdR 2014

Messages: 1413
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April 2014
Re:starter set-up in multi tournament play Wed, 03 June 2020 11:33
Don’t see a problem in current rules and games order. I could play as E player and don’t be a game master.

cu

Stas
      
    
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