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Beefy Botham 81
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Tigers Question Wed, 03 June 2020 11:00
Hi guys,
If I attack a Tiger with the Airstrike card and roll a flag in the initial roll, the card states flags may not be ignored. The Tiger is allowed to ignore all flags.
Which rule takes precedence? I thought the cards were the overriding facts in gameplay; everything else is secondary, which is correct please?
Thanks for reading this and providing assistance
      
BagrationM
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Re:Tigers Question Wed, 03 June 2020 11:24
Hello.
In the event of such a contradiction, the attacker has the advantage.
I hope it helps!
(It was google traductionn which translated. I hope it is correct).
      
KeLian_05
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Re:Tigers Question Wed, 03 June 2020 11:36
The Tiger ignore all the results (except the grenade of course) only on the second roll !
If you roll a retreat on the first roll, he has to retreat.
If he can't retreat, the flag is rerolled with other dices that have hit.
      
Clexton27
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Re:Tigers Question Wed, 03 June 2020 13:22
Beefy Botham 81 wrote on Wed, 03 June 2020 05:00

Hi guys,
If I attack a Tiger with the Airstrike card and roll a flag in the initial roll, the card states flags may not be ignored. The Tiger is allowed to ignore all flags.
Which rule takes precedence? I thought the cards were the overriding facts in gameplay; everything else is secondary, which is correct please?
Thanks for reading this and providing assistance


Let me just give you a lawyer answer, “It depends”.

For instance, if you are playing with the original game set and you use the following card:
https://ncdn0.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/img/mm_compendium_command_22.jpg
Then the card takes precedence and despite any rule for the Tiger it must retreat, and since it cannot it is a hit which must be rerolled.. Only a reroll of a GRENADE would be a kill.

However, if you are playing with the New Flight Plan and are doing a regular strafing run, and you toss a FLAG result, the Tiger may ignore the result as it may ignore flags and it is a miss. (Just remember when playing with NFP, the Original game AIRPOWER card is actually removed from the deck before play begins).

However, if you playing with the New Flight Plan and you play an accompanying Air Combat Card which is appropriate for the type of aircraft you are flying and the text on the card states “flags may not be ignored”, then it is a hit.

And lest we forget, if you are playing with the older Air Pack version of aircraft and rules then flags cannot be ignored either, so it would be a hit.

Hope this is helpful. And yes you are correct, cards usually take precedence over other written rules.

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 03 June 2020 13:25]

      
BagrationM
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Re:Tigers Question Wed, 03 June 2020 13:49
Clexton27 écrit le Wed, 03 June 2020 13:22

And yes you are correct, cards usually take precedence over other written rules.

Hello,
What are the exceptions?
      
Clexton27
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Re:Tigers Question Wed, 03 June 2020 14:02
BagrationM wrote on Wed, 03 June 2020 07:49

Clexton27 écrit le Wed, 03 June 2020 13:22

And yes you are correct, cards usually take precedence over other written rules.

Hello,
What are the exceptions?


Yes, simply put, the scenario creator may decide to limit the use of a particular Command Card or Combat card and this will usually be in the scenario notes. For instance, some scenarios may state, “play AIRPOWER card as ARTILLERY BARRAGE card”. Or in the case of some cards such as this Urban Combat Card:
https://ncdn0.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/img/mm_compendium_urban_5.jpg
The text of this card will over rule the AIRPOWER card, allowing you to ignore ALL flag results.

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 03 June 2020 16:38]

      
BagrationM
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Re:Tigers Question Wed, 03 June 2020 15:05
Thanks !
      
Beefy Botham 81
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Re:Tigers Question Wed, 03 June 2020 23:30
Thanks guys however I’m still unclear about the flags rule.
1. Does a Tiger ignore all flags or just the first one rolled against it? (like INF/ART in sandbags, bunker etc)
2. If a flag means it has to retreat and it cannot, it is a hit and that die is rerolled along with other dice.
3. As in 1 above, does a Tiger normally ignore all flags/first flag EXCEPT when a command card overrules this possible benefit?
I hope those points are clear, let me know if I can provide further clarity about my question........
      
sam1812
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Re:Tigers Question Thu, 04 June 2020 06:34
Tigers have no special privileges against flags.

On any roll where a regular tank would have to retreat, a Tiger has to retreat also.

On any roll where a regular tank would be hit, a Tiger would get the hit rerolled ...

... with two exceptionsthat I can think of. On a Frozen River, if the ice roll is a star, a Tiger falls through the ice and dies. If a Tiger is on a bridge that gets blown up, the Tiger falls in and dies.
      
Zalamence
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Re:Tigers Question Thu, 04 June 2020 08:18
sam1812 wrote on Thu, 04 June 2020 07:34

Tigers have no special privileges against flags.

On any roll where a regular tank would have to retreat, a Tiger has to retreat also.

On any roll where a regular tank would be hit, a Tiger would get the hit rerolled
--


Rules as written would indicate otherwise:

Equipment Pack rulebook p. 6

All enemy battle dice rolled against a Tiger are ignored. Instead, those dice that would have scored a hit had the unit been a standard tank are re-rolled. If at least one of the re-rolls is a grenade, the kill is confirmed and the Tiger is lost. All other re-rolls (including flags, if any) are ignored.


Flags are ignored in the primary roll AND re-roll.
      
Jon Washington
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Re:Tigers Question Thu, 04 June 2020 08:34
Zalamence wrote on Thu, 04 June 2020 02:18

Flags are ignored in the primary roll AND re-roll.


The original Tiger rules came from Tigers in the Snow, not the Equipment pack. The card image printed on the Tigers battle map is the same one that is in the card compendium and that came with the air pack and it makes no metions of ignoring flags.

I don't remember where but somewhere there is official clarification that says the Equipment Pack was poorly written/edited and Tigers do in fact retreat on flags.

If you search for "Tiger retreat" in this forum you will find many many posts about this and all of them say the same thing. For example, here is one that comes from Jesse Rasmussen in 2009, who (you probably already know) is an editor/playtester for DoW on memoir 44 stuff.

rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 07 June 2009 15:44

A Tiger is played just like any other unit when a flag is rolled...if it can retreat, it must move backward and it behaves exactly like a normal Armor unit that is forced to retreat. So I would move the tank back and then reroll the die that hit so if it isn't destroyed it's in the right spot. But I don't think it probably matters what order you do those in. If it can't retreat, the Flag counts as a hit.



https://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=167016#msg_167016

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 04 June 2020 10:10]

      
Beefy Botham 81
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Re:Tigers Question Thu, 04 June 2020 11:46
Cheers guys, that’s far clearer thank you very much.
I’ll have to replay the Tigerfibel scenarios now with the proper rules!
      
Clexton27
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Re:Tigers Question Thu, 04 June 2020 13:55
I apologize for my prior answer regarding TIGER retreats as I was unaware of the conflict within the general rules and Equipment Pack Rules. Here is a nice rule sheet about TIGERS which I believe is clear.

https://cdn.daysofwonder.com/uploads/userpages/320854/_5973. pdf
      
BagrationM
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Re:Tigers Question Thu, 04 June 2020 14:04
If I understood correctly: flag: the tiger folds.
Flag not feasible: we have an additional raise.
Is it this?
      
Zalamence
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Re:Tigers Question Thu, 04 June 2020 14:40
Thanks Jon Washington!

I was sure that Tigers would retreat normally and also checked the FAQ. I picked the quote from EP because I thought it would be the most recent, up-to-date version.

Funny that my gut feeling was right. It felt so strange reading the Compendium Card, FAQ and rule book, none of them handling this issue properly.
      
Colonel AY
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Re:Tigers Question Tue, 09 June 2020 16:30
I think tiger must retreat because this tank is not indomitable Smile
If I make mistakes, excuse me, I speak french... Very Happy

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 09 June 2020 16:32]

      
    
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