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shamogi
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - First Rules Sat, 08 July 2006 05:28
erps schrieb am Sat, 08 July 2006 00:58

Hi

I think for discussion it is no mistake to have the same text in this thread too Wink
...
bye, erps



the forum on the new website is ready and works too ...
i think its there a better overview then here ?!

please give me any feedback!!!

http://www.shamogi.de/nc06/

greetings
shamo
      
dea1
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - First Rules Sun, 09 July 2006 21:11
erps schrieb am Sat, 08 July 2006 00:58

The opponent in a ko system should not be of choice by the best team (don't know any sports which such a system? )


I do - if you agree that Bridge is a sport, that is Wink
And yes, I like Bassie's suggestion.

A different question: Am I correct in assuming that A1-B1, A2-B2, ... is the default lineup but can always be changed if both captains prefer (and agree on) a different lineup?
I already know teams against whom we would most probably use that possibility.

Thanks again, Bassie for doing all the work Thumbs Up
dea
      
erps
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Fri, 18 August 2006 15:59
Hi

bassie schrieb am Sat, 08 July 2006 00:49


3.7 Anti-Bot Trust
In a game between player A and B, if A is replaced by a bot, B waits till A returns and after that the game
resumes, no matter what the bot did. Special cases:

1. After about 5 minutes (give or take), if B hasn't returned, A leaves the game. B has to make sure the
game is resumed within 24 hours. If not, the TD rules:
A. A wins if B hasn't put enough effort in rescheduling the game;
B. The game is annulled if both players express the wish to do so, or if the TD rules that no one can be
blamed (if neither of the players could find time, for example);
C. B wins if and only if the TD is convinced that A deliberately procastinated the game.

2. In case A continues to play against the bot, the game is annulled if A can convince B or the TD that he
didn't play on deliberately. A can't win the game anymore.


3. In case both players are disconnected, the game has to be resumed in 24 hours. If not, the TD rules
according to the situation where only B was disconnected. In this case both players are treated equally.



I know no better rule but i have a problem with 2. If a player has bad ticks and is getting bad colors too it should no problem to draw let's say 20 cards quick as usual between top players and then leave in an instant. The other player has possible clicked twice on the cards and is not even aware of the bot. It happened to me a few times! And this is worse, this can most of the time only happen if the other player leaves on purpose! A connection loss is easy to check because you mostly stay in the game for 2 or 3 minutes doing nothing...

Obviously it is not possible to find rules against cheating anyway Sad I will record all my games and i think everybody should do this because it will solve many problems of last year (excessive trash talk, unusual behaviour etc.).

bye, erps
      
SMP-bassie
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Sun, 20 August 2006 19:44
Hi all,

Time time time... Hard to find sometimes. Had some other priorities (family, work, holiday) to take care of. All is well (thank you) and now NC can start. First a short response to erps: yes, you're right that this might happen. Let's hope everyone is reasonable in this. Hopefully my proposal underneath will help to make NC 2006 a pleasant experience for all participants and spectators.

Having no TD and no time to find one, I decided to play without. Three of his tasks have to be taken over:

1. Draw. The rules are clear on this this year, so no problem with that. I just follow the rules.

2. Line-ups. This is solved as follows: with the draw, every clash between Team A and B will also contain a captain of Team C, who will receive the draws of both captains and publishes them as soon as he/she has been PM'ed by both captains of Team A and B. The captain of Team C (who will have a different nationality than teams A and B) is not allowed to talk with anyone about the lineup until both captains have sent their PMs containing the lineup and he/she has posted it. This also means that the sending of the lineup of the 1st round will be postponed by two days (Friday the 8th of September), because captains will only know on Wednesday or Thursday whom they have to send it to.

3. Rulings. If a situation needs a ruling, I will make a posting and let the captains decide (note: Goan is captain of the Dutchies, so I stay out of this). Of the captains who react within a prescribed time span, we take the majority of votes and so will be ruled. I think that should be possible.

I will add this to the rules yet. I urge all players (especially the captains) to read them before we start. Any questions?
      
erps
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Sun, 20 August 2006 23:00
Hi

Question regarding the lineup:

Is the lineup fixed for all eternity after the start of the tournament? Is so, i suggest a change. Why?

After a few weeks it is possible that the ranking of the team members are not the same as in the beginning. So the "encouraged" order due to ranking is not true. What happens if one or two player are not able to play for weeks? You lose 2 spots in the ranking too. Another example: Our team will have Whitetrain as substitue. He is by far the highest ranked player, but he has not much time and is only available in an emergency. Should we list him in the lineup number one or last number? If he is number one, every other team must fear that he plays their number one but seldom. Is he last he has an "easy" opponent in case of emergency.

I suggest that every team can change their lineup till Monday night after the last round. This gives 2 days till Wednesday for the next captain to see the correct lineup. Maybe we should have an own thread for the lineup with exact one post from every captain.

Ok, quick summarize of suggestion by example:

Our team starts with the lineup (order by rank) for the first round:

1 erps
2 sebbo (captain)
3 rudi69
4 Silvertrain
5 MASON68
6 womble
7 Donisl
Substitute:
8 WhiteTrain

We play let's say the first 3 rounds with this lineup. After the first 2 rounds (round ends Sunday), we decide to change the lineup because womble is back to the top 10 and whitetrain must play because the first 3 are away. We can't change the lineup for round 3 because the order and the pairings are set the last wednesday but we will change the lineup for round 4 to:

1 WhiteTrain
2 womble
3 Silvertrain
4 MASON68
5 Donisl
Substitutes:
6 erps
7 sebbo (captain)
8 rudi69

This happens till monday night. The captain of our round 4 opp knows now the correct order and on wednesday we give our numbers (say 1,2,3,4,5) and everything wents on.

Maybe we can limit the changings of the lineup? Every week a team can exchange the position of exact two players in the team lineup (of course monday is always deadline).

What do you think?

bye, erps










      
dea1
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Sun, 20 August 2006 23:54
I think we need someone - or something (yet another splendid erps tournament system?) to determine the rank of all players at a fixed time on a weekly basis (eg each Sunday at 11 pm CET).

The resulting order is mandatory for next Wednesday's lineup (unless the opposing captains agree on a different lineup among themselves).

I think it does not make sense to have a fixed order for 'eternity' - ranking may and will change over time.
I don't think captains should 'rank' their players as they see fit - this will lead to endless discussions. In some cases whatever you do will be considered wrong/unfair/manipulative/... by somebody else.
Just thinking what for instance kid (sorry kid - no offense meant - just looking for a good example) might think if the Austrian ranking is
A): 1 streetcar; 2 Angel - that reflects today's ranking - 'hmmm... Angel wants an easy win'
B): 1 Angel; 2 streetcar - 'aha, streetcar doesn't dare to play kid'
Whatever I do, it will be wrong ...

So if there's a way to organize that without creating tremendous workload - erps, I'm counting on you! - let's have a fixed order reflecting current ranking and no room for discussions.

dea
      
OLE Bats_
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Mon, 21 August 2006 00:21
I try it again - i posted it longer ago...

Why must the player be choosed by ranking?

Why cant a team choose the players, as they like it?

Is it a problem for the highranked players, for losing maybe 6 points and get only 2 by winning??

Or is it a technical problem?

It is TEAM-Cup, the ranking of the single players is not so important. But thats only my opinion...

cu bats

and sorry again for my bad english

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 21 August 2006 00:23]

      
SKMorefield
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Mon, 21 August 2006 14:51
My preference would also be for the captains listing the players in order of slot. This allowed for some interesting strategy I think. Also, with no TD it's more 'cut and dry'. No 'this person was this rank when, but then he moved to this rank and... ' But... it's really not a big deal either way for me.

The other problem with no TD is where are the captains going to post the lineup? Last year it was great to have TJ's one posting to constantly refer to, which had the standings and was updated every week. Maybe erps could develop a computer model where all this could be posted for us all to refer to? I don't know how much work that would be... at any rate it would be nice if there were 1 person who just kept track of the lineups and scores, but if there were that 1 person we would have a TD wouldn't we? Rolling Eyes





[Mis à jour le: Mon, 21 August 2006 14:52]

      
erps
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Mon, 21 August 2006 17:06
Hi

Hrgmpf...

It's possible to write a tool which allows only the captains to enter their choice of players based on the current lineup (which is set with a deadline every week).

Two problems:
My server may be down sometimes. Happened before, always possible, and i see no backup system. Should not be more than a few hours so this delay is okay, i think.

Obviously i am able to manipulate the system for my team ("Hey look, they choose to play with XXXXX as number 1, i have a bad stat against him, i am top ranked but let YYYYYY play as number 1...")

So this is a matter of trust. Personally i hope that even the players who hate me (* hi! *) are trusting my word that i will never do such a thing.

I am planning to write another tool for leagues anyway so maybe i am able to do the "lineup/score" thing as a "TD" but i will not make ANY decisions!!!

Let Bassie decide. And quick please!! Wink This whole lineup rule is not clear for all participants and even if i support the idea behind (=more tactic than random) i think a fixed lineup for the whole tournament is not really good...

bye, erps

      
kotay
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Mercenary ^^ Mon, 21 August 2006 18:50
Yoo Cool

As a good mercenary,I sell my skills as a player/trainer for germany or a french team (or a chinese team ?) Twisted Evil
      
SMP-bassie
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Mon, 21 August 2006 19:21
OK - let's cut the discussions quickly because we are at the brink of a new tournament. Let's do it the same way as last year, so each week captains decide in which slot their players play.

Captains have to send the lineup to a third assigned captain, like I described in this thread and in the rules.

Any named other solution has been sucking (excusez le mot) until now so let's go back to what so many people like. I will change it yet in the rules.

bas

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 21 August 2006 20:15]

      
SKMorefield
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Mon, 21 August 2006 19:58
bassie wrote on Mon, 21 August 2006 13:21

OK - let's cut the discussions quickly because we are at the brink of a new tournament. Let's do it the same way as next year, so each week captains decide in which slot their players play.

Captains have to send the lineup to a third assigned captain, like I described in this thread and in the rules.

Any named other solution has been sucking (excusez le mot) until now so let's go back to what so many people like. I will change it yet in the rules.

bas



Very cool. That solves the lineup problem, but again where should the individual captains who receive these lineups post them? There is not one thread to do that is there? I'm supposed to use my section of the organizational thread for my scores, right? Should I also post the lineup of the match to which I am assigned?

Where are we going to be able to view the standings each week? Do you think it would be possible for you to use your first post just to keep track of standings, team results, etc.?

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 21 August 2006 19:59]

      
SMP-bassie
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Mon, 21 August 2006 20:27
SKM asks again

Where should the individual captains who receive these lineups post them? There is not one thread to do that is there?

Send them by PM to the assigned captain. Didn't I post this? So in the complete draw, apart from Teams A and B it also states the name of the captain of Team C. You PM your lineup to him/her.
SKM asks

I'm supposed to use my section of the organizational thread for my scores, right?

yep
SKM wants to make sure

Should I also post the lineup of the match to which I am assigned?

No, like I said, you will need to send it to another prescribed captain.
SKM is curious

Where are we going to be able to view the standings each week? Do you think it would be possible for you to use your first post just to keep track of standings, team results, etc.?

Yes, in the thread.

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 21 August 2006 20:35]

      
SKMorefield
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Mon, 21 August 2006 20:55
I think somewhere there is a miscommunication. I understand the part about sending my lineups to the prescribed captain, but where will the prescribed captain post the lineups for all to see who is playing who? Last year this was all on the TD post, so we could see each lineup and each matchup, to see what games people might like to watch.

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 21 August 2006 20:57]

      
SMP-bassie
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Mon, 21 August 2006 21:05
Ah, good point. They will have to post it in their own team posting.
      
ElSoyokaze
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Mon, 21 August 2006 21:51
Okay, so we have two American teams, two German teams, and an Austrian team. Where is everybody?! Are the French surrendering already? I see bassie around, but no Dutch team, and there's been some clamor for an international team, but nobody to head that, either!

Step up, people! This is the Nations Cup, after all!

--ElSoy
      
Zeno
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Re:Mercenary ^^ Tue, 22 August 2006 07:13
kotay-in hell wrote on Mon, 21 August 2006 12:50

Yoo Cool

As a good mercenary,I sell my skills as a player/trainer for germany or a french team (or a chinese team ?) Twisted Evil


Sorry Kotay, you are a guest and are not eligible to play in NC. (the chinese weep)
      
Franck
-= Crew =-
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Nation Cup sponsoring Tue, 22 August 2006 09:50
Hi everyone

Days of Wonder will sponsor the Nation Cup 2006 by offering prizes to the winners.

Note that we hope that the tournament plays flawless: fairplay and courtesy should always be in the players' minds...

In these conditions, we will be offering:
- a game of their choice to each member of the winning team
- A Ticket to Ride PC game to each member of the 2nd team

Party on!

--
The DoW Team
      
Rolli
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Re:Nation Cup sponsoring Tue, 22 August 2006 10:14
Franck schrieb am Tue, 22 August 2006 09:50

Hi everyone

Days of Wonder will sponsor the Nation Cup 2006 by offering prizes to the winners.

Note that we hope that the tournament plays flawless: fairplay and courtesy should always be in the players' minds...

In these conditions, we will be offering:
- a game of their choice to each member of the winning team
- A Ticket to Ride PC game to each member of the 2nd team

Party on!

--
The DoW Team


Great! Nice idea, DoW!

member = player? What about mascots? Wink
      
erps
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Tue, 22 August 2006 11:13
Hi

Great!! And far more better is the Link on the Ticket To Ride Site to this forum Smile Thx!

bye, erps
      
kotay
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Re:Mercenary ^^ Tue, 22 August 2006 13:02
Quote:



Sorry Kotay, you are a guest and are not eligible to play in NC. (the chinese weep)


therefor I said I SELL my skills for the team who can pay Twisted Evil
      
SKMorefield
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Tue, 22 August 2006 13:39
Thanks DoW!!! Smile Very Happy We hope you will also field a team this year!
      
OLE Bats_
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Re:Nation Cup sponsoring Tue, 22 August 2006 13:46
Thanks to DOW - GREAT !!!

We hope to see your team again in NC 2006

OLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
bats Cool
      
erps
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Tue, 22 August 2006 13:51
Hi

http://www.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~erps/zugranking/rank ing.html

The ranking of the NC 06 teams which are registered so far. One of our players is still a guest, that will change till the beginning.

I counted the average of the five best to get the second team ranking. In the rules bassie stated the average of the best 6 but this is useless as the minimum number of team members are 5 (and i doubt DOW will bring in more than that!).

bye, erps

It would be great if every team registering their players add the player number to the names of the players. This number is fixed and help me a lot adding players to my tools! Thx!! Smile

And make the both threads organisation and rules sticky please!!

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 22 August 2006 14:59]

      
erps
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TD!!!!!! Tue, 22 August 2006 15:48
Hi

THADD

is willing to do the job if everyone agrees!! At least the lineup and register and board job!

I nominate her for TD!!

bye, erps
      
SKMorefield
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Tue, 22 August 2006 16:13
Sounds good to me, thanks Thadd!!
      
SMP-bassie
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Tue, 22 August 2006 18:08
Wow, it's almost getting too hot to handle. Shocked

Super DoW, just great. I am very honoured to have your support. I realise we (the players) are only a small part of the TTR community and we cost a rather large amount of your time. I am very pleased that you see that we also generate some positive energy and hopefully new inflow in the DoW community.

Thadd, I would be very happy to have you as a TD. You fit all the requirements: multilingual, top player, not attached to a specific country or team, well-known in the community and female (but that's personal Laughing ). I'll gladly give you the same mandate as Travis last year. Best would be to make a new thread, called something like "Nation's Cup - Draws, results and rulings". Please let us know if you take the job by means of a PM to me or . If so, I will change the rules yet and let everyone know by means of a posting here what you're here for. Wow, it's starts to look like I will be just a player in two weeks... that feels good. Cool

I will change the rules thread and my posting in the organisational thread yet later this week.

Btw SKMorefield, erps and all the others who had their share in the preparation: thanks for your help. It is most appreciated.

Pfffff nice to have such a cup but loads of work... Uh Oh
      
Franck
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Wed, 23 August 2006 12:18
Rolli13 écrit le Tue, 22 August 2006 10:14


member = player? What about mascots? Wink

Yes...
I would suggest they create a mascots team Wink

erps écrit le Tue, 22 August 2006 13:51


And make the both threads organisation and rules sticky please!!

Done...



[Mis à jour le: Wed, 23 August 2006 12:19]

      
kotay
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player requirement ?? Thu, 24 August 2006 18:18
Yoo

I wanted to know if a ~orange player was allowed to play ? like neozen, or some other good ~orange players ?
      
SMP-bassie
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Thu, 24 August 2006 18:42
kotay,

As long as they can open their own games and their captain can PM, I don't see a problem. Does anyone else see a problem?

cu, bas

      
Rolli
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Thu, 24 August 2006 20:05
bassie schrieb am Thu, 24 August 2006 18:42

I don't see a problem. Does anyone else see a problem?



As I know the ~orange players are only allowed to play at one pc. All other things are like real players... so why not let them play?
      
ElSoyokaze
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Thu, 24 August 2006 20:05
The more the merrier. So long as his account doesn't interfere with scheduling or play, I see no problem.

--ElSoy
      
SKMorefield
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Thu, 24 August 2006 20:07
Kotay, do you need a loan or something to afford the few euros to buy a webcard? My interest rate is pretty high, but for the right price I might consider it. Very Happy
      
RFAD - Saint-Emilion
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Thu, 24 August 2006 20:13
Now that I well read the rules as I translated them in French, I'm still deceived by the system of best of five is kept : It's interesting to have the chance to play 5 games against one player, and this permitted, IMO, to make the general level get better in the NC2005. Have 3 losses against toutoune or angel is "normal" for players who are not in the top 10 but it's nice to have a 5 chances to beat them at least once( when, last year, I lost against angel, I really enjoyed to win one single game)
Something else : why do you keep this "order" ; for the lineup ?
The strategy in the choice of the players gave spice in the NC last year and permitted that the #1 could meet the #30 with sometimes more difficulties than meeting the #5 than he plays often and is used to beat...

Wouldn't it be possible to go back over these 2 rules to keep the spirit of the NC 2005

PS : bassie, can you explain what is the exact meaning of :
In case A continues to play against the bot, the game is annulled if A can convince B or the board of captains that he didn't play on deliberately. A can't Win the game anymore.

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 24 August 2006 20:14]

      
kotay
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Thu, 24 August 2006 20:21
SKMorefield schrieb am Thu, 24 August 2006 20:07

Kotay, do you need a loan or something to afford the few euros to buy a webcard? My interest rate is pretty high, but for the right price I might consider it. Very Happy



Thanks SKM, but I already have some proposition of gift of webcards ;o) it is a pity that you cant give me a free webcards so that I will play with your team Twisted Evil
      
dea1
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Re:TD!!!!!! Thu, 24 August 2006 20:43
erps schrieb am Tue, 22 August 2006 15:48

Hi

THADD

is willing to do the job if everyone agrees!! At least the lineup and register and board job!

I nominate her for TD!!

bye, erps



great, Thadd

A warm welcome from Austria, Mrs TD!
      
erps
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Thu, 24 August 2006 23:07
Hi

Requiem For A Dream schrieb am Thu, 24 August 2006 20:13

Now that I well read the rules as I translated them in French, I'm still deceived by the system of best of five is kept :
[...]
Something else : why do you keep this "order" ; for the lineup ?
The strategy in the choice of the players gave spice in the NC last year and permitted that the #1 could meet the #30 with sometimes more difficulties than meeting the #5 than he plays often and is used to beat...
Wouldn't it be possible to go back over these 2 rules to keep the spirit of the NC 2005



bassie schrieb am Mon, 21 August 2006 19:21

OK - let's cut the discussions quickly because we are at the brink of a new tournament. Let's do it the same way as last year, so each week captains decide in which slot their players play.

bas


As shown in a former post from bassie one of the rules IS changed back to last year. The lineup will be chosen by every captain free and sended to the TD.

I think the other rule will not remain as in last year because there was a small majority against the 5 game rule.

I believe you can live with a compromise like that?

bye, erps

      
thadd
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Thu, 24 August 2006 23:23
Requiem For A Dream wrote on Thu, 24 August 2006 13:13


PS : bassie, can you explain what is the exact meaning of :
In case A continues to play against the bot, the game is annulled if A can convince B or the board of captains that he didn't play on deliberately. A can't Win the game anymore.



I think, it's 'can't' instead of can.

Once the rules of the NC are fixed, bassie will probably be ready next week with all the details, we (bassie and I) want the captains of every team to accept them in the specific thread (NC2006 Rules Thread) by posting their agreement. As soon as this is done, I will open a new thread called the NC 2006 Organisational Thread (bassie you still have to change the other one into "Registration Thread"), where the captains will post the results of their team matches.

DOW, I think bassie already asked you, but would it be possible to have a TD account for the time of the NC, in case that someone else will have to take over for a while?

I am sure that I forgot some stuff, feel free to tell me!

I hope you will all have a lot of fun!




[Mis à jour le: Thu, 24 August 2006 23:38]

      
RFAD - Saint-Emilion
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Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Thu, 24 August 2006 23:36
Quote:

OK - let's cut the discussions quickly because we are at the brink of a new tournament. Let's do it the same way as last year, so each week captains decide in which slot their players play . I will change it yet in the rules.


The rules were not clearly changed about this.

I translated the rules for the french forum and I would like the rules to be very clear

The french players will only read the translation and not all the other threads
      
erps
Senior Member

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Messages: 1633
Enregistré(e) en :
July 2005
Re:Nations Cup 2006 - discussion Thu, 24 August 2006 23:57
Hi
thadd schrieb am Thu, 24 August 2006 23:23

Requiem For A Dream wrote on Thu, 24 August 2006 13:13


PS : bassie, can you explain what is the exact meaning of :
In case A continues to play against the bot, the game is annulled if A can convince B or the board of captains that he didn't play on deliberately. A can't Win the game anymore.



I think, it's 'can't' instead of can.



I fear it's "can" Sad

It means (example): Player B is disconnected AND instead of waiting for B (after ONE inevitable BOT move) player A decides to get an easy win and plays on: This is forbidden by the rules and B GETS the win ("A can't WIN the game anymore"!!). But if A can explain that he didn't see the connection loss of B the game is cancelled... and played again.

I critized this rule already because it offers a possibility for B to trick A into playing but i know no better rule... Maybe: I think bassie should write if A continues to play against the bot, the game is annuled (no need for questioning the "reasons").

bye, erps
      
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