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erps
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  Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Thu, 10 May 2007 17:00
Hi

I know it's a long time for NC 07, but i have to address one really important thought.

I hear a lot of things in the german community, i speak to other players, hey, sometimes some players (not so well known) ask me for advice or help.

So for me it seems that this year we may have 7, 8 or more german national teams for the NC.

I am german and i know that more than half of all players here are german too, but i think this is going too far. Especially after last year with the all-german-semis i believe that the international community may have some problems with 8 german teams Wink

Why not asking first in the german forum? No, i think, that we first need responses from our foreign friends. Is this a problem? Should we limit this?

Personally i believe we should limit it. I think that 4 teams (maybe 5 like last year) for any country should be the number.

And that is the reason why i am asking so early. If we limit the number of teams we have to do some sort of qualifying and this may last for weeks!

There are two possibilites: A qualifying for all german teams in a single tournament similar to the NC (but quicker) or a combination of seeded teams and qualifying.

Let's say all teams are qualified that reached last years semis and all others have to qualify Wink Wink

Just kidding! Imho the two best ranked teams should be qualified automatically and the others should fight for the last 2 or 3 spaces.

What do you think?

bye, erps
      
*player277410
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Thu, 10 May 2007 18:58
We could have a Germany vs The Rest of the World, like there was a URSS vs The Rest of the World match in chess.
      
psteinx
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Thu, 10 May 2007 20:05
I've got no problem per-se with a heavy German representation. The only issue is that if the overall # of teams gets to be really high, it could make things a bit cumbersome. But worst case, splitting into 4 groups instead of 2 could probably resolve that.

Divide your talent as thinly as you'd like - that will make it easier for the US this year Smile
      
OLE sebbo
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Thu, 10 May 2007 22:27
psteinx schrieb am Thu, 10 May 2007 20:05

But worst case, splitting into 4 groups instead of 2 could probably resolve that.


GREAT idea! The last two NCs were far too long! I really really wish, that we can make it faster this year with smaller round robin groups.

cheers
sebbo
      
*player228974
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Thu, 10 May 2007 22:42
I agree splitting into smaller groups would be better for all involved, now back to your question erps i think it would be better to limit your number of teams( final number to even out the number of teams in a group?)So if u have your german qualifiers to rank your teams from 1 to whatever , then in go the 1st however many needed to fill groups so there are even numbered groups.That way at least 4 or 5 go in maybe more,and your weaker teams have at least had a chance to play in the qualifiers then.Just a thought as i doubt i will be playing, unless we get more aussie players Rolling Eyes
      
DrakeStorm
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Fri, 11 May 2007 02:59
Its tough to say what should be done with all the germans! It depends on what the essence of the tournament is.

1.) If its a competition between nations to see which nation is best, then there really should only be one team per nation! And each nation can do what ever they want to figure out who is on the team (qualifying tournament, based on rating, etc.).

2.) If the tournament is like the Olympics, then I guess there can be multiple teams from 1 nation. I'm not sure how its decided in the Olympics, but I assume there are qualifying events and a max on the number of entrants from each nation.

You could have it 1 team per nation and then a qualifying tournament for everyone else to fill up needed slots (if the extra german teams win all the extra slots, then so be it). That would give everyone a chance to be in the event without necessarily making the actual NC too long (the players on the #1 team of each nation wouldn't have to spend the time to 'qualify').

3.) Since the NC is sponsered by DoW, they may not like any restrictions placed on the event, and everyone (who is not a guest) should be allowed to join if they can put together a team.

Personally I think too many teams is probably a bad thing.

If there is unlimited teams, then I think maybe a different format for the tournament might be better. Instead of groups and round robin, just have it a 6-7 round(week) swiss format with a cut to the top 8 (tie breakers based on opponent's match percentage). First week seeding would be based on rating or something similar. I don't think the swiss format is effected much by teams dropping out (i.e. in later rounds they have no chance at Top 8, so they quit before end of tournament).



      
Nanni15
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Fri, 11 May 2007 12:21
Hi,

if you really want to make a kind of qualifying tournament for german teams you have to think over the date because it cant be too long before start of NC.

My request is to consider the summer-school-holidays in Germany so players with children (I cant be the only one Wink) have no disadvantage.

Last Nationcups started early in September and because I am living in Southgermany with late school-holidays I missed always the first 2 rounds of NC.

Nanni Smile

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 11 May 2007 12:29]

      
thadd
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Fri, 11 May 2007 16:20
Depending on how many teams and nations are going to participate, there should be a limited number of teams per country. Just in order to take care of the interest in the NC.
And definitley splitting into more groups if you have a high number of teams, you should try to have it played in a shorter timeframe than last year.

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 11 May 2007 16:21]

      
*player119882
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Fri, 11 May 2007 16:22
I think we need to define the tournament first.

It seems many (me included) think NC is too long. I also think it should have a 'standard' format... dickering over how it will be set up every year is a little silly.

Here's my proposal:

the NC tournament itself is set at 12 teams. We run it as two groups of 6, round robin style.. two top in each group advance to the semi-finals. This makes the tournament take 7 weeks.

Alternatively, I could see making it 14 teams, and making the top 4 rather than 2 advance.. adding a (max) of 3 more weeks.


Next, we decide what 12 (or 14) teams... Say 3 German, 2 US, 2 France, and 1 DoW and 4 (or 6) others.. we can debate that. Maybe the champs get in automatically if they want to... maybe both finalists.. we can debate that.

If there really are 7 potential German teams, they can fight it out in a qualifying tourney of some sort, like the Football World Cup. Same goes for the US and France... Maybe the US will decide to have an indivual tournet and take the top 12 players to make two teams... while the Germans make the teams first and compete... its all good, as long as the next result is the correct # of teams.


      
guest071186
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Fri, 11 May 2007 16:53
Hi!

I think 18 teams should play. 2 groups would be ok.
I think that there will be a limit of german teams. A limit of 8 will be the best.
Let us say the semi final teams from last year are in and the other german teams have to play a qualification.
A limit of 4 or 6 will be not enough because I also think that there will be more than 10 German teams. And if there will be only a limit of 4 everybody knows who will be in.
Everybody should have a real chance and I am of the opinion that EVERY TEAM should play the NC!
Germany:8
USA:3
France:2
Austria:1
Finland:1
Spain:1
Switzerland:1
DoW:1

I also agree to 20 or more teams(4 groups)!
      
*player119882
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Fri, 11 May 2007 17:03
With 18 teams and only two groups... you're taking 11-12 weeks.. I think that's too long.

Now, if we wanted to be super inclusive, we could have a 'standard' of 4 pools, and have the top two in each pool make the 'knock out' round (like a 1/2 size version of the Football World Cup)
      
OLE sebbo
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Fri, 11 May 2007 17:32
Three months is too long, and i know that there are many many others who think so! Last year it took more than three months IIRC and believe me, playing every round of the whole turnament is very very hard.
Two months would be great, more than 3 months is against Geneva Convention!

cheers
sebbo
      
RFAD - Saint-Emilion
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Fri, 11 May 2007 17:50
hmmm, 2 cents discussions about the NC rules are coming again ! Twisted Evil this competition works fine as it is, it doesn't need changing Confused

you find it too long ? how can you follow a championship of football, soccer or basket ball ? you watch the first matches and you say " f..., we'll know the winner only in 6 months, it sucks !" Laughing

let me remind you that it is a team competition, if you don't want to be under pressure during 10 weeks, join a team of 20 players and play one match every 2 weeks
you're not obliged to play all the time

of course, you have to trust your teammates, perhaps even train them and you won't have to blame them if they lose a match that you found very easy but that you were too lazy to play yourself

well, again the same thoughts as last year and there will always be the ones who want only one group,the ones who want a competition with quasi direct elimination because they are overbooked and even if they want a little dow wagon under their names (like Red TGV 2005 and GTS 2006), they don't want it to take too much time ...
      
thekid
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Fri, 11 May 2007 18:29
Mikkel Thygesen wrote on Fri, 11 May 2007 10:53

Hi!

I am of the opinion that EVERY TEAM should play the NC!




Who cares what a cheat thinks.

No NC for U!!!!
      
Goan
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Fri, 11 May 2007 18:54
Mikkel Thygesen wrote on Fri, 11 May 2007 16:53


Germany:8
...


and not a single Dutch and/or Belgian team ?
      
OLE sebbo
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Fri, 11 May 2007 18:55
Requiem For A Dream schrieb am Fri, 11 May 2007 17:50


you find it too long ? how can you follow a championship of football, soccer or basket ball ? you watch the first matches and you say " f..., we'll know the winner only in 6 months, it sucks !"



The football/soccer world championchips took exactly 1 month....

Quote:


let me remind you that it is a team competition, if you don't want to be under pressure during 10 weeks, join a team of 20 players and play one match every 2 weeks
you're not obliged to play all the time


Well, i wonder if red tgv would have won the NC with this philosophy....
And even if i would handle it like this, its still too stressfull and in the end too boring if it takes too long.
Even if i dont play, i am by the side of my teammates, and for me thats more stressfull then playing.

Quote:

you won't have to blame them if they lose a match that you found very easy but that you were too lazy to play yourself


I cant remember that i ever blamed my teammates.

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 11 May 2007 18:56]

      
psteinx
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Fri, 11 May 2007 19:17
I agree with Sebbo.

Structure the NC so that it will last no longer than about 2 months. Shorter is even better (but perhaps not possible).

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 11 May 2007 19:18]

      
erps
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Fri, 11 May 2007 19:33
Hi

My opinion:

Groups with round robin. Max 4 teams in one group (Similar to soccre worldcup). First two teams advance to next round, KO after this. Schedule is worked out complete at the start of the tournament. Duration 3 weeks + max 4 weeks for playoffs.

Best of 7 is a must, in KO best of 9.
Maybe 7 players for every match (gives more players the chance to play and is reducing luck effect). But 5 is okay for me too.

Setup for the matches either pure random or strictly to ranking (i prefer). Every rule should be questioned to speed up the event. Sorry Smile But in the NC we have over 100 top players involved for months, we all have a live. Last year was too long and doing a lot of community things besides playing is very stressful (i know what i am talking...).

Ah, yes, and so much for my theory: No NC for *not respected* players. It's more than enough time to regret Wink

bye, erps

      
*player119882
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Fri, 11 May 2007 20:10
I think 6 teams per group is better, 4 is a little two random.. look at all the complains you see for the Football World Cup about 'group of death' and such... I think 7 or 8 weeks is short enough.


      
DrakeStorm
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Sat, 12 May 2007 01:23
I guess I'm in the minority and didn't think the NC was too long.

We only had 6 players on our team and I didn't play 2 of the weeks and I feel I didn't get to play enough! If we had more than 6, I might have played even less!

I don't see why the overall length matters as much as how long each individual clash lasts. The hardest part seems for people to get together to play. And now people are suggesting best of 7 or even 9 instead of 5. Well THAT is what is gonna take forever and bog down the tournament. I'd rather play best of 3(sure that's lots of luck), but I would offset it by playing MORE rounds! OK, that's not gonna happen, so I would stick with how it was last year.

There were some early upsets in the first few rounds of the NC last year. Had the tournament lasted fewer weeks, it would not have given the better teams a chance to regroup and make the quarter-finals. That may be a good thing if you are on a weaker team and win the first few rounds, but for the stronger team that gets unlucky, not so much. Do we want the best 8 or 4 teams in the play-offs or have it so more teams have a chance?

Like I mentioned earlier, I think with a lot of teams, a swiss style tournament would be better. As the rounds progress, the winners play the winners (i.e. the better teams play each other), so the match ups are more interesting. As teams lose they play weaker and weaker opponents, giving them a better chance at winning. Does every strong team really need to play and beat the DoW team? With the swiss format, as DoW loses, they will play the other weak teams and actually have a chance at winning (this would be the same for any other weak teams). We wouldn't have to limit the teams. Low ranked teams wouldn't have a chance at top 8, but would still get to play other similar strength teams.

With say 20 teams, a swiss tournament would only need to be like 5 rounds with an additional 3 rounds of playoffs.

I like the idea of round robin and playing all the different teams once, but if we have 4 groups instead of 2 like last year, then its not as interesting to me (might as well just play random teams in a swiss format, rather than the 3+ other teams somehow assigned to your 'group'). And how is the seeding going to go? By ELO? We have enough threads on here complaining about it. What if one team tanks their rating to get in a better group? This has a better chance with 4 groups rather than 2. With 2 last year, both groups were pretty strong, but with 4 I can see maybe one or even 2 groups being lopsided, especially if people tinker with their rating ahead of time. A swiss tournament wouldn't nearly be as effected by this. In the swiss format, you could extend the tournamnet a round to say 6 instead of 5 and give some teams a "bye" the first round (maybe the #1 team of each nation, or maybe the top 8 of the previous year). The first round would then basically act as a qualifier for the other teams (no team would be cut, but if they lost the first round it would just be that much harder for them to get into the top 8 ). You could even go further and give the winning team the previous year a 2 round 'bye' (only problem is who's on what team changes from year to year, so might not be fair).

So to recap. My vote is for a 6 round swiss tournament with the #1 team of each nation getting a 1st round 'bye' with a cut to the top 8 and single elimination from there (So 8 weeks for the top teams and 9 for other teams). Matches would be best of 5 as would the Clashes. Then maybe best of 7 for quarter and semi-finals, and best of 9 for finals (or just same as last year).

[If anyone wants to know more how a swiss format tournament would actually work, I can explain in more detail, but I'm sure most people will just brush off the idea so I won't waste my time]







[Mis à jour le: Sat, 12 May 2007 01:25]

      
*player119882
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Sat, 12 May 2007 02:37
I actually think a Swiss tournament would work pretty well(I just looked up the specifics)

I'd want to have a knockout round at the end though, to make sure you can't win by losing at then end....

It is very similar as far as who plays who to the group format, and would accomodate any number of teams...

I think I'd go with random pairings for the 1st round, but I'd be OK doing it by rating too.


      
erps
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Sat, 12 May 2007 11:37
Hi

No swiss. The main problem are the waiting times between the rounds for scheduling. We need a fixed schedule from the beginning to the end, no pause between RR and KO (the pause was there because the tournament was too long -> making it even longer!). A change of clashes every round depending on the outcome of the rounds before? Are you nuts? Rolling Eyes Most of the players of last NC didn't read the rules once! Even the captains...

Yes and let the surprises happen in the Round Robin. Give the weaker teams a chance. But with the pairings strictly to ranking we raise the chances for the good teams.

ELO is not really perfect, but for seeding it is okay and the only thing we got. And part of the last years fun was the hourly updated ranking of teams and most teams DID play for getting into a preferred group. I think this would be great fun and it is some sort of qualifying.

And best of 7 instead best of 5, one or two games more a week should be possible.

For the pairing:

There is a dealine for the ELO ranking for seeding the teams. The order of the players is settled the same moment (okay, they may manipulate, but it's better than random). Every week at sunday night every captain is posting the 5 (or more, maybe ONE substitute lower ranked as all players) players. Now highest ranked plays highest ranked and so on. I am pretty sure to find a automatic system to store the captains choices and calculating the pairings at a given moment. Of course it is a matter of trust me not manipulating this system...

bye, erps



      
RFAD - Saint-Emilion
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Sat, 12 May 2007 12:16
sebbo écrit le Fri, 11 May 2007 18:55

Requiem For A Dream schrieb am Fri, 11 May 2007 17:50


you find it too long ? how can you follow a championship of football, soccer or basket ball ? you watch the first matches and you say " f..., we'll know the winner only in 6 months, it sucks !"



The football/soccer world championchips took exactly 1 month....



of course sebbo, the soccer championship lasts one month but I can see only one german team, not 8 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

[Mis à jour le: Sat, 12 May 2007 12:17]

      
RFAD - Saint-Emilion
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Sat, 12 May 2007 12:28
erps écrit le Sat, 12 May 2007 11:37

Hi
There is a dealine for the ELO ranking for seeding the teams. The order of the players is settled the same moment (okay, they may manipulate, but it's better than random). Every week at sunday night every captain is posting the 5 (or more, maybe ONE substitute lower ranked as all players) players. Now highest ranked plays highest ranked and so on. I am pretty sure to find a automatic system to store the captains choices and calculating the pairings at a given moment. Of course it is a matter of trust me not manipulating this system...


TA TA TAM ! it didn't work last year, let's try it this year.
At least, if some players manipulate the elo there will be endless discussions, like when thekid suspiciously fell down before his games against TEE ( because the elo also permits to know whose game one can watched )
      
erps
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Sat, 12 May 2007 12:42
Hi

( ) You did understand the proposal?
( ) You can speak english well?
(x) You only criticize because you have no other ideas?

Smile

Serious, the order should be done at the beginning. So may thekid play himself down and he will be number 5 of this team for the WHOLE tournament. His position during the NC will not count (only for watching and this is always the case).

It's a quick and easy system, no need to give a TD the schedule a week before, no pause between the rounds.

bye, erps


      
Nanni15
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Sat, 12 May 2007 14:49
Hi all,

I have another request for the next NC.

Its about beginning first the game.. we all know that its a real advantage for the player who starts in the game. So if you are lucky a day, it can happen to you that you start all 5 (or even all 7) games. I know its only luck, but in a game of 2 players of nearly same strength (and you maybe make the pairings according to ELO) its an important fact.

We had a rule for this situation in FedCup and I found it very fair, so maybe we can find a similar one for NC?

Sure you need luck in this game, but I prefer seeing a win of the better player not of the luckier one. Wink

Nanni Smile
      
RFAD - Saint-Emilion
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Sat, 12 May 2007 19:31
erps écrit le Sat, 12 May 2007 12:42

Hi

( ) You did understand the proposal?
( ) You can speak english well?
(x) You only criticize because you have no other ideas?



En fait je parle super mal anglais et je suis obligé a chaque fois d'embeter des gens pour traduire ce que je pense alors je vais faire un poste complet en français, que vous pourrez ignorer royalement ou tenter de comprendre.

Qu'est-ce que vous attendez de la Nation Cup : une competition pasteurisée qui fasse bien en sorte que le N°1 à la fin soit le N°1 du début ? pas de bol, cela n'a pas marché en 2005 ni en 2006 alors faudrait arriver a trouver la regle ultime qui fait que la competition ne sert qu'a dire au meilleur "oui, vous etes le splus forts" et aux plus faibles "mais qu'est-ce que vous venez faire si ce n'ets embeter les plus fort, retourner vous entrainer et vous serea accepter quand vous aurez 1700 points".

Déjà, on a enlevé les matchs nuls en mettant 5 joueurs par rencontres, mais vous voulez recommencer a faire jouer 1-1 2-2 3-3 4-4 et 5-5 en elevant toute surprise et toute possibilité pour un adversaire moyen de battre un plus fort... avez vous peur a ce point de perdre vos precieux points ? ou est-ce que vous etes tellement sur de gagner contre des supposer plus faible que la competition n'a d'interet que contre des joueurs de votre "niveau" ??

Ensuite, vous voulez une competition rapide : pourquoi ne pas autoriser qu'une equipe par pays ? ça reglerait le probleme non Very Happy ah bah non, les allemands ont 5 representant (ou même 8 soit plus de la moitié des équipes !!)...

Bref, vous voulez une competition rapide et indolore... ça prouve vraiment que votre gout de la competition n'ets aps tres developper.. amusez vous a nous pondre un reglement de 10 pages qui servira au mieux le sinteret des grosses equipes et je regarderais en septembre ce que ça donnera...

@++
      
OLE Masimo
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Sat, 12 May 2007 22:01
Hi all,
i think this is drifting away a little - great post by the way, rfad - thanks a lot for your important thoughts :

(x) yes i don`t speak one word french (sorry i forgot : i can say vine rouge and camembert)


Well if i am not mistaken the initial question was whether to limit the german teams or not? right?

Ok, my oppinion is that it is not a good idea to have any sort of preeliminating tournament. This would create another tournament before the NC and would take away attention and thrill of the NC.

If there really is the need to reduce the number of teams then - well - maybee regarding to the elo team ranking (ranking of nation cup teams as provided by erps). I don`t really like this idea much as i think limitations are always bad, but still better than a pretournament.

I rather favoure the thoughts of having more groups as mentioned by sebbo, spudamon and psteinx. I had a lot of discussions via skype during last NC with a lot of players while watching and my impression is that most of them wanted more but smaller groups for a faster tournament. Shamogis poll does support that only slightly (57 % for smaller groups, 43 voted to leave it as is) but i think it would have a lot of advantages. First i believe that the good teams will get to the KO regardless of the group size. But then, second i cannot believe that it is really a great thing for the weaker teams to get beaten 6 times or so. In a smaller group they would not have to face the feeling to get beaten up so many times.

The NC was a great experience and a lot of fun - please don`t limit it by making it an elitaer happening only for toptops and refusing it to other players. I think it is worth to share the NC feeling with anyone willing to play and follow the rules.

Thanks, Masimo
OLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE



      
Nayeli
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Sun, 13 May 2007 00:45
My thoughts exactly, my Cpt.!

cause, when I see my current rank, I think by myself: Oh oh Nay, you're not longer a good player like the last year Embarassed , BUT hey folks, I'm training for the next NC to get as "high" as the kid was Laughing

Nay

OLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
      
Zeno
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Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Sun, 13 May 2007 23:09
My thoughts,

I would limit the number of teams by having a competitiveness rule. In Olympic figure skating any country can send a single skater, but to send two or three you have to meet increasingly difficult standards based on placings in previous championships.

First, to ensure that every team has access to a player with some understanding of the game, I would say that every team must have a member who played in a previous Nation's Cup or who is in the top 200.

Second, if a country has an entry, then every person from that nation is only eligible for a national team. Perhaps with a Peter De Zeeuw clause in case the national team does not want him.

Third, for a country to have two entries at least three of the members of each team must be top 200 players. For a country to have more than two entries at least five of the members of each team must be top 200 players.

Fourth, top 200 is interpreted as being in the top 200 of the US list or the overall list. This interpretation would likely give about 260 accounts, roughly half of which should be German.

Could there be 26 German teams under this scheme? Unlikely, but mathematically possible. Still, I would prefer not to exclude a group of competitive players merely because they happen to live in a country that loves board games.

      
Baron Von Schmidt
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January 2007
Re:Important Nations Cup Thoughts 2007 Mon, 14 May 2007 03:43
We will take Peter De Zeeuw! Sure he lost almost every match. Sure he was "hopped up" on some sort of recreational Amsterdamian "elixer", Sure he insulted us to our face and behind our back.

But the boy needs a home!

We Love you Peter! (or at least we welcome you onto our team)

Baron
      
    
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