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Dietrich von Kleist
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The thread of Revelations Fri, 31 August 2012 13:19
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/DiederC/cappa1.jpg

Everybody will recognize this photo by Robert Capa (The Falling Soldier, Federico Borrell García 1936), a picture that gave the Spanish civil war a face. But practically nobody knows that a part of the photo it was cut off. It shows that the soldier was shot down by an American soldier and so puts this war in another perspective!

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/DiederC/cappa.jpg
      
Clexton27
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Re:The thread of Revelations Fri, 31 August 2012 17:46
ART is always controversial...
      
trentdep
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Re:The thread of Revelations Fri, 31 August 2012 18:29
Art?...

Perhaps ~ Chance Encounter Personified ~? ( In more ways than one - one good, one not so good )...

      
Clexton27
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Re:The thread of Revelations Fri, 31 August 2012 20:17
I was simply refering to the ARTistic liscense that Dietrich had used to modify this classic photo. He might find that some people are offended by the comic approach to a man's death. And so to him (Dietrich) it may just be ART, but to someone else .. a bad joke.
      
clorofila
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Re:The thread of Revelations Fri, 31 August 2012 21:03
stevens, your point of view could be right under different circumstances, but Capa's photograph was a set up, not a live event shot. It was staged.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:The thread of Revelations Fri, 31 August 2012 21:55
clorofila wrote on Fri, 31 August 2012 23:03

stevens, your point of view could be right under different circumstances, but Capa's photograph was a set up, not a live event shot. It was staged.


Was it? I didn't know that! Confused
      
clorofila
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Re:The thread of Revelations Fri, 31 August 2012 22:58
Well, at least that's where latest research points to.
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:The thread of Revelations Fri, 31 August 2012 23:41
stevens wrote on Fri, 31 August 2012 20:17

I was simply refering to the ARTistic liscense that Dietrich had used to modify this classic photo. He might find that some people are offended by the comic approach to a man's death. And so to him (Dietrich) it may just be ART, but to someone else .. a bad joke.


One could also say that playing wargames sitting in a lazy chair can be quite offending to all the war victims and their beloved ones. So in my opinion guys who are offended by a Monty Pythonesque cartoon should stick to scrabble or domino. Very Happy
      
Clexton27
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Re:The thread of Revelations Fri, 31 August 2012 23:50
Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Fri, 31 August 2012 17:41

stevens wrote on Fri, 31 August 2012 20:17

I was simply refering to the ARTistic liscense that Dietrich had used to modify this classic photo. He might find that some people are offended by the comic approach to a man's death. And so to him (Dietrich) it may just be ART, but to someone else .. a bad joke.


One could also say that playing wargames sitting in a lazy chair can be quite offending to all the war victims and their beloved ones. So in my opinion guys who are offended by a Monty Pythonesque cartoon should stick to scrabble or domino. Very Happy


Yes, you validate my statement:

"Art is always controversial"

I appreciate this dialogue and the stimulation it brings to think for a moment about what we spend our time on. Thanks Dietrich, your art is thought provoking.
Smile
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:The thread of Revelations Sat, 01 September 2012 00:09
It was ment as a parody on fake WW2 photos.

[Mis à jour le: Sat, 01 September 2012 12:14]

      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:The thread of Revelations Sat, 01 September 2012 12:17
stevens wrote on Fri, 31 August 2012 20:17

I was simply refering to the ARTistic liscense that Dietrich had used to modify this classic photo. He might find that some people are offended by the comic approach to a man's death. And so to him (Dietrich) it may just be ART, but to someone else .. a bad joke.


I am pleased you consider my collages as ART.
Anyone interested in buying a signed copy? Just drop me a line Cool
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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  Re:The thread of Revelations Tue, 04 September 2012 08:41
The original photo.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/DiederC/flag.jpg

      
Phread
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Re:The thread of Revelations Tue, 04 September 2012 09:23
You are playing with fire now, that photo (even though it was a reenactment) is sacred to those from the US.
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:The thread of Revelations Tue, 04 September 2012 10:20
Phread wrote on Tue, 04 September 2012 09:23

You are playing with fire now, that photo (even though it was a reenactment) is sacred to those from the US.


I think I better discontinue this thread. Sad
I don't want a price on my head.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/DiederC/WANTED.jpg

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 04 September 2012 11:22]

      
Jeronimon
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Re:The thread of Revelations Tue, 04 September 2012 19:01
Hmmm, 1000 gold ingots. Interesting. I could use those.

Let me check the calendar for this weekend, Belgium is not so far away. Twisted Evil
      
van Voort
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Re:The thread of Revelations Tue, 04 September 2012 19:24
I'm only watching this thread to see how long it takes before it gets shut down


      
Helcat
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Re:The thread of Revelations Tue, 04 September 2012 22:34
I am loving it.

Keep going at it Dietrich.
      
Jaykay2010
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 13:17
I'm loving this thread too ... maybe shows a difference between European and American humour ...

The purple flag pic is sheer genius!

Anyone aware of the work of Banksy in the UK ? This is of similar humour, my hat goes off to you Sir!
      
jocu
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 13:38
The original photo is very impressive Shocked
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 13:48
Jaykay2010 wrote on Wed, 05 September 2012 13:17

I'm loving this thread too ... maybe shows a difference between European and American humour ...

The purple flag pic is sheer genius!

Anyone aware of the work of Banksy in the UK ? This is of similar humour, my hat goes off to you Sir!



I had the same thoughts ... that there is a difference between our type of humor and especially a difference between sensitivity toward some topics (politics, religion, war, ... ). I think we Europeans are a little more anarchistic, sarcastic and cynical in that domain. Our continent has been a huge battlefield throughout history after all. And this reflects in our humor, music, art ... .
This doesn't mean the Americans don't have this kind of humor. M.A.S.H. is one of my favorite series!
      
david5272
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 15:51
complete knucklehead - Dietrich von Kleist

many more words are in my head to describe this user, but picked the only kid-friendly word
      
sdnative
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 16:15
The Iwo Jima flag picture is an American symbol of bravery and honors those who died fighting, changing it to a retreat flag is very offensive to some and in very bad taste to most Americans.
      
Morgiliath
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 17:55
Interesting point emerges from this thread, in perception of humour/art, perhaps seen as Europeans vs Americans, as Jaykay rightly observed.

The original is a photo that later become a symbol(and got a Pulitzer Prize, which means that it was evaluated as a photo, not as a symbol).

And btw, AFAIK the photo was NOT staged, although there was quite a kerfuffle about that at that time.

I myself think that what Dietrich did was fun
but
a) am a fan of his creations (so a little biased)
b) my personal opinion doesn't really matter here.

What really matters here is that some other people perceived this as bordering on sacriledge ('sacred' photo, 'very offensive, very bad taste') and even called the author names ('knucklehead').

As I said, most interesting. Perhaps someone would like to continue the discussion according to these items:
1) freedom of speech vs
2) freedom of artistic expression vs
3) tromping on other people's feelings vs
4) Monthy Python - funny or not?

Anyone interested? We may still make it into a Ph.D. Smile





[Mis à jour le: Wed, 05 September 2012 17:57]

      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 18:47
sdnative wrote on Wed, 05 September 2012 16:15

The Iwo Jima flag picture is an American symbol of bravery and honors those who died fighting, changing it to a retreat flag is very offensive to some and in very bad taste to most Americans.


When the retreat flag is raised the opponent retreats, or am I missing something. Am I now insulting Japanese players, if there are?

Please guys don't dig to deep for meaning.
I'll try not to "insult" anymore. Rolling Eyes

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 05 September 2012 19:23]

      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 18:50
david5272 wrote on Wed, 05 September 2012 15:51

complete knucklehead - Dietrich von Kleist

many more words are in my head to describe this user, but picked the only kid-friendly word


Crying or Very Sad Crying or Very Sad Crying or Very Sad

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 05 September 2012 19:04]

      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 19:07
@ Webmaster: please remove this thread. The way it's evolving, it's just noth worth it.
      
van Voort
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 20:12
I already reported the thread


Not necessarily because I disapprove of it, but because it is the sort of thing that DoW probably want to set some guidance on.
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 20:24
van Voort wrote on Wed, 05 September 2012 20:12

I already reported the thread


Not necessarily because I disapprove of it, but because it is the sort of thing that DoW probably want to set some guidance on.


Thanks, like I said this IMO innocent joke is leading to an atmosphere I don't like nor want.
      
david5272
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 20:44
please delete this thread DOW...right from the begining, has nothing to do with ONLINE M44

      
Quit2
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 22:16
This thread has as much to do with Memoir 44 online as certain other threads.

Dietrich did not mean to insult anyone. He just meant to amuse.

To most europeans that picture will be considered funny. To most americans, it will be considered bad taste.

However, this forum is not exclusive for the americans.

Instead of wanting to remove this thread, and act like it never existed, you could use it to your benefit. Explain why this is insulting to you. Listen to europeans when they explain how this is funny to them. Broaden your horizon. The world is more than the USA.

Humor is very peculiar: I spend me life on both sides of the border that "separates" the germanic culture from the latin culture. I notice every day how certain things can be funny in one culture and are simply not understood in the other, or worse, are considered bad taste. Learning to understand the humor from another culture can be a great help to understand the culture. If you refuse to learn about other cultures, you might give bitter reactions every time you get in contact with those cultures. That is the kind of spirit that gets us into wars, like the one Memoir 44 is commemorating.

This thread reminds me of the danish cartoon about Mohammed.
      
Phread
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 22:26
I don't want this thread removed.

I pointed out that the flag picture was likely to cause offence, because I have friends and relatives in the USA - many of whom have served in the military.

This thread shows the diversity of the M44 community.

Dietrich von Kleist didn't mean to offend, and IMHO has shown remorse.
We should all learn from this and move on.

I like his art, sometimes art crosses boundaries of taste.

Morgiliath - the flag raising was restaged a couple of hours after it happened. The second time with a much bigger flag and more photographers.
      
david5272
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 22:41
I guess this can all be added to the M44Online FAQ....NOT!

How does this thread help or provide anything to M44 Online.

      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 22:45
I'd like to thank those guys who take this "incident" as an opportunity to get a broader view on something that seemed harmless to me in the beginning but has a deeper impact than I expected.
Thanks for the support! It makes me feel a lot better now. Smile
Good night.
      
Jeronimon
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 22:50
To add to this thread I will lean on wiser men who have gone before me, and borrow their words:

First an American:

"Tolerance implies no lack of commitment to one's own beliefs.
Rather it condemns the oppression or persecution of others."


John Fitzgerald Kennedy (President of the USA) 1917-1963



Further back in time and a European this time:

"You are not angry with people when you laugh at them. Humor teaches them tolerance."

William Somerset Maugham (English short-story Writer, Novellist and Playwright 1874-1965



And in closing the words of another European, although you might say Europe did not exist in his day (Other than a woman Zeus had plans for):


"Humor is the only test of gravity, and gravity of humor; for a subject which will not bear raillery is suspicious, and a jest which will not bear serious examination is false wit."

Aristotle (Ancient Greek Philospher, Scientist and Physician) 384 BC-322 BC



Where I fully agree with JFK an Aristotle, William Somerset Maugham might be a little on/over the edge. it is not always when you laugh at other people that it is in good taste or good spirit.


"Blessed are we who can laugh at ourselves for we shall never cease to be amused."




PS: @ Morgiliath, bringing the Pythons into it was really clever and out of the box.
Thank you.

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 05 September 2012 22:51]

      
Quit2
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 22:51
It helps to build this very international community.

It also draws from the game: flags of our fathers is one of the medals you can earn in the game, and the purple flag is well known to all of us. Sometimes we love to raise it against our enemy, sometimes we hate it because it puts the unit out of reach for another attack.

Can you please explain to us how this picture comes over to you as an insult?

I'll explain why I think it is funny:
Those soldiers raised an american flag to show enemy and friend that they took that ground.
When you roll a (purple) flag in Memoir, the enemy has to retreat, and you can take the ground.
I think it is funny how Dietrich combined those two facts into this photoshopped picture: By making them raise a purple flag, they do the memoir version of chasing the enemy and taking the ground.
      
stevie02
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Re:The thread of Revelations Wed, 05 September 2012 23:44
Although its purple, people see white.

Stevie
      
Helcat
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Re:The thread of Revelations Thu, 06 September 2012 00:07
I think it is a very good thread.

I did not know much about the picture from the Spanish civil war nor did I know about the picture of the US troops planting the flag.

I have learned from this tread that both pictures might have been a set up and nevertheless very famous because they depict some essence of their period.

If people are insulted by the way Dietrich makes a joke about,at least, how I see it, the fact that these pictures have been set-ups; (Although there may be other jokes in it as well) I would like to propose to them to explain what the historical background is of the original pictures and what they stand for in their culture. (As has been happening) And how they interpret Dietrich's work, within that context.

So that we understand the reason why they are offended.
In that way people reading this thread get to learn something.

Personally I am intrigued by the fact that symbolic things have such a big impact on us; you have a symbol, you have one or more stories where the symbol stands for and you have a lot of emotions triggered by those stories. That is strange if you think about it. But that would lead us to a discussion on the function of human emotions. Also interesting but outside the line of this thread. For now, keep up the good work, both Dietrich and contestants.

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 06 September 2012 00:11]

      
sdnative
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Re:The thread of Revelations Thu, 06 September 2012 04:08
The flag raising was not a set-up.. It was done while under combat and 3 of the Marines would be killed during the battle.

To learn more about this follow this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iwo_jima_flag_raising


The highly recognizable image has been parodied several times. Anti-war activists in the 1960s altered the flag to bear a peace symbol, as well as several anti-establishment artworks.[43] Edward Kienholz's Portable War Memorial in 1968 depicted faceless Marines raising the flag on an outdoor picnic table in a typical American consumerist environment of the 1960s.[44][45] It was parodied again during the Iran hostage crisis of 1979 to depict the flag being planted into Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini’s behind.[43] Time magazine came under fire in 2008 after altering the image for use on its cover, replacing the American flag with a tree for an issue focused on global warming.[43] The British Airlines Stewards and Stewardesses Association likewise came under criticism in 2010 for a poster depicting employees raising a flag marked "BASSA" at the edge of a runway.[43]

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 06 September 2012 04:10]

      
Helcat
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Re:The thread of Revelations Thu, 06 September 2012 11:10
Good article, thanks.
      
sdnative
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Re:The thread of Revelations Thu, 06 September 2012 19:17
If anyone of you is interested in learning more about the subject I recommend this book Flags of Our Fathers.

Also a movie based on the book directed by Clint Eastwood and produced by Steven Spielberg is highly recommended.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_Our_Fathers

They also made a second movie based on letters found on the island after the battle written by a Japanese soldier, The movie is called Letters from Iwo Jima.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_from_Iwo_Jima
      
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