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tank commander
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Dunkirk Sun, 28 March 2010 14:57
In Dunkirk (sceanrio # 35 in the Campaign Book) I read the evacuation rules and had a few questions...

1) When an ordered LC moves next to a Inf on the beach, does the Infantry board the LC (no order needed for the Infantry)?

2) If the answer to # 1 is yes, then I assume both French AND Brits Infantry could board LC on the same turn as if the Infantry are not ordered, then the nationality restriction does not apply here.

3) It states that once a loaded LC is ordered, it can evacuate the infantry and after is has done so, it the LC returns to it's starting position -- here I assume, that would be the exact same hex it started the scenario on.

4) Can an Infantry unit that did not start on the beach and which has been reduced to 1 or 2 figs, move to the beach and also be evacuated?

What do you guys think?
      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 28 March 2010 16:54
tank commander wrote on Sun, 28 March 2010 05:57

In Dunkirk (sceanrio # 35 in the Campaign Book) I read the evacuation rules and had a few questions...

1) When an ordered LC moves next to a Inf on the beach, does the Infantry board the LC (no order needed for the Infantry)?

2) If the answer to # 1 is yes, then I assume both French AND Brits Infantry could board LC on the same turn as if the Infantry are not ordered, then the nationality restriction does not apply here.


I assume you think the Infantry unit doesn't have to be ordered because of the line that says, "An Allied unit with 1 or 2 infantry figures can board an adjacent LC that is next to the beach." However, the idea of units teleporting onto the LC without needing to be ordered goes against the norm for Memoir '44. The Infantry units must be ordered to move from the beach to an adjacent LC. Then next turn, the LC can be moved off the board. The reason for this delay is because you can only order one unit in a hex per turn (check FAQ page 24 under Aircraft Carriers).

Quote:

3) It states that once a loaded LC is ordered, it can evacuate the infantry and after is has done so, it the LC returns to it's starting position -- here I assume, that would be the exact same hex it started the scenario on.


Correct.

Quote:

4) Can an Infantry unit that did not start on the beach and which has been reduced to 1 or 2 figs, move to the beach and also be evacuated?


Yes! Once a unit has been reduced down to 1 or 2 figures, it's eligible to be evacuated.

I really enjoy this scenario and I like the challenge of trying to evacuate as many units as I can! It's not easy, though, which makes you realize how hard it would have been when they were trying to do this in real life!
      
sam1812
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 28 March 2010 17:50
Great questions, but rather than us speculating here, why not ask Yangtze directly?

I have an additional question. If you have English units in some LCs and French units in other LCs, you can't evacuate both nationalities on the same turn, since the units retain their nationalities, right?
      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 28 March 2010 17:58
sam1812 wrote on Sun, 28 March 2010 08:50

Great questions, but rather than us speculating here, why not ask Yangtze directly?
I don't think that will do much good, since Yangtze didn't write the Fall Gelb campaign... Razz We could ask Antoine or jdrommel since they created this scenario. Smile

Quote:

I have an additional question. If you have English units in some LCs and French units in other LCs, you can't evacuate both nationalities on the same turn, since the units retain their nationalities, right?
That's how I've always played it. Cool
      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 28 March 2010 18:16
Whoops - I looked just at the page in the book, and saw that it was "Based on an original scenario from Yangtze and Antoine."

By the way, I just took another look at the scenario. Though LCs may ignore 1 flag, if one is in the back row and a plane strafes it, it would be eliminated, right?
      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 28 March 2010 18:18
sam1812 wrote on Sun, 28 March 2010 09:16

Whoops - I looked just at the page in the book, and saw that it was "Based on an original scenario from Yangtze and Antoine."

By the way, I just took another look at the scenario. Though LCs may ignore 1 flag, if one is in the back row and a plane strafes it, it would be eliminated, right?


Correct. And you don't get the LC back if it's eliminated so a useful strategy would be for the Axis player to send planes after the LC fleet...much like in history! Confused
      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 28 March 2010 18:34
sam1812 wrote on Sun, 28 March 2010 18:16

Whoops - I looked just at the page in the book, and saw that it was "Based on an original scenario from Yangtze and Antoine."

By the way, I just took another look at the scenario. Though LCs may ignore 1 flag, if one is in the back row and a plane strafes it, it would be eliminated, right?



Yangtze actually confirmed my questoin on this scenario last summer.
Yangtze confimed as Jesse said, infantry needs to be ordered to board an LC.

I don't know if you can order LC's with British units and LC's with French units on the same turn. Someone mentioned retaining nationality, what nationality is the LC's considered to be before they are boarded? Or can they be ordered together with both French and British units?

Sam, a unit can never retreat of the board on the other players turn. Retreating of the map needs to be ordered. So strafing would elliminate the LC.

Stig Morten

[Updated on: Sun, 28 March 2010 18:35]

      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 28 March 2010 18:48
Looking at the rules for the LC in the FAQ you can see that Landing Craft are ordered like they are their own unit. What I mean, is that you can't order LC with an Infantry Assault card, even if Infantry are in the LC. You can't order LC with the Armor Assault card even if tanks are in the craft. It would stand to reason that once the units are in the LC, their nationalities no longer matter. They are simply infantry being evacuated.
      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 28 March 2010 19:53
Let me see if I have this right:

1st turn - order LC to a hex adjacent to a 1 or 2 fig Inf on the beach.

2nd turn -- order Infantry onto LC

3rd turn -- order LC off board.

I saw in the notes that LCs may be ordered as English or French units.

So if you had two LC in the center and 1 had a French Inf on it and the other had a Brit unit in it, could both LCs be ordered on the same turn?

      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 28 March 2010 20:24
If you wanted to, I believe you could move LC adjacent to the beach and move Infantry into the LC in the same turn (in the FAQ, it would be just like moving an Airplane and an Aircraft Carrier to converge on the same hex). Then the next turn you can move the LC with the infantry toward evacuation and safety!

I could be wrong, but I believe that once the Infantry is in the LC it no longer matters what country the Infantry is from. You could order LC with French Infantry and LC with British Infantry in the same turn. Smile
      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 28 March 2010 20:54
tank commander wrote on Sun, 28 March 2010 10:53


I saw in the notes that LCs may be ordered as English or French units.

So if you had two LC in the center and 1 had a French Inf on it and the other had a Brit unit in it, could both LCs be ordered on the same turn?


I had forgotten that the rules specifically say that LC can be ordered as French or English units. I believe that once the Infantry units enter the LC they become LC units...not French Infantry in a LC, or British Infantry in a LC, just a Landing Craft unit. So if the allied player wants to order the French units in the center, I think he/she could also order LC that are in the center even if the LC is full of English troops.

Any thoughts? Rolling Eyes

[Updated on: Sun, 28 March 2010 22:21]

      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 28 March 2010 22:17
I am glad I played ths scenario - it is good to get answers to these questions - thank you all for your input. Smile
      
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Re:Dunkirk Sat, 07 December 2013 16:34
Having just finished the Fall Geld grand campaign, here are a few points that I'm not entirely clear about.

1. Air Rules don't apply at all, so no Air Sortie cards, only regular Air Power and maybe (as luck would have it) AP/AS tokens, correct? I'm only asking since it seems a bit odd that in a documented historical situation where German ground forces were ordered to stop so that the Luftwaffe could finish the job, this scenario actually doesn't use the Air Rules (which were an option during the entire Unternehmen Fall Gelb campaign).
2. If an infantry unit is ordered and moves two hexes, can it board an LC with its second move? This is to clarify things because the scenario notes seem to imply that in order for an unit to board the LC, being adjacent to it prior to boarding is a must.
3. When does the LC returns to its starting position: the same turn it leaves the map when evacuating an unit or at the beginning of the next Allied turn? Is this return a default action or does the LC still needs to be ordered so as to enter the map?

I'd also like to mention that this thread was a big help prior to playing Dunkirk. I've yet to understand why at least some of the problems tackled here haven't made their way into the FAQ.
      
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Re:Dunkirk Sat, 07 December 2013 18:21
Rork wrote on Sat, 07 December 2013 19:34

I'd also like to mention that this thread was a big help prior to playing Dunkirk. I've yet to understand why at least some of the problems tackled here haven't made their way into the FAQ.


Have you seen the size of the FAQ?! Razz

I decided to keep the Campaign information separate and will eventually (time willing) create a standalone Campaign FAQ. Who knows when that (or if that) will happen, so for now this thread is the place to look. Smile
      
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Re:Dunkirk Sat, 07 December 2013 21:56
rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 07 December 2013 19:21

Have you seen the size of the FAQ?! Razz

Downloaded it, seen it, read it... well, not quite all of it. I thought things were added to it gradually, not all at once. Besides flavor text tends to increase size Wink .

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 07 December 2013 19:21

I decided to keep the Campaign information separate and will eventually (time willing) create a standalone Campaign FAQ. Who knows when that (or if that) will happen, so for now this thread is the place to look. Smile

Good to know that a Campaign FAQ is planned. Since I intend to finish both CBs, no doubt more stuff will come out. So if you'll need any help for the FAQ, do let me know.
Meanwhile some answers are still needed Razz.
      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 08 December 2013 06:33
Rork wrote on Sun, 08 December 2013 00:56

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 07 December 2013 19:21

Have you seen the size of the FAQ?! Razz

Downloaded it, seen it, read it... well, not quite all of it. I thought things were added to it gradually, not all at once. Besides flavor text tends to increase size Wink .

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 07 December 2013 19:21

I decided to keep the Campaign information separate and will eventually (time willing) create a standalone Campaign FAQ. Who knows when that (or if that) will happen, so for now this thread is the place to look. Smile

Good to know that a Campaign FAQ is planned. Since I intend to finish both CBs, no doubt more stuff will come out. So if you'll need any help for the FAQ, do let me know.
Meanwhile some answers are still needed Razz.


Make sure you add those outstanding questions to the Campaign Book FAQ thread to get answers and to keep them all in the same place.
      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 08 December 2013 10:45
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 08 December 2013 07:33

Make sure you add those outstanding questions to the Campaign Book FAQ thread to get answers and to keep them all in the same place.

Which *ahem* outstanding questions would be that?
If you refer to the ones above, I thought that his was the thread to post to since they were about the Dunkirk scenario. As for the rest, Air Rules questions has a thread of its own, the others are in the thread I started. Should I repost them to the CB FAQ thread?
      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 08 December 2013 16:28
Rork wrote on Sun, 08 December 2013 13:45

rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 08 December 2013 07:33

Make sure you add those outstanding questions to the Campaign Book FAQ thread to get answers and to keep them all in the same place.

Which *ahem* outstanding questions would be that?
If you refer to the ones above, I thought that his was the thread to post to since they were about the Dunkirk scenario. As for the rest, Air Rules questions has a thread of its own, the others are in the thread I started. Should I repost them to the CB FAQ thread?



Yes! Post them in the errata thread for whichever Campaign Book the question is from. These threads will eventually be lost in the depths of threads and it will make it nearly impossible to find the questions that were brought up. The errata threads are sticky, so we'll always be able to check there.

Before posting, make sure that your questions don't already have answers so that we don't clutter the threads up with things that don't need to be included in an FAQ. For example, if someone asked "What is a Reinforcement Token?", we don't need to include that because it's clearly explained in the book and the person just didn't do a good job reading...

Again, the "plan" to do a Campaign Book FAQ is a someday plan...so it might be a while. But it's good to have everything gathered in one place to make that eventual FAQ easier to tackle.

Here are links to the appropriate threads:
Campaign Book #1
Campaign Book #2
      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 08 December 2013 17:23
Not everything was clear-and-cut questions and some of it was more like speculation/interpretation of the rules, but OK, will do so. Thanks for the suggestion.

Wasn't such a stellar idea after all Very Happy , so I'll just bump this thread and wait for answers here.

[Updated on: Wed, 11 December 2013 23:57]

      
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Re:Dunkirk Fri, 13 December 2013 17:36
Rork wrote on Sat, 07 December 2013 10:34

Having just finished the Fall Geld grand campaign, here are a few points that I'm not entirely clear about.

1. Air Rules don't apply at all, so no Air Sortie cards, only regular Air Power and maybe (as luck would have it) AP/AS tokens, correct? I'm only asking since it seems a bit odd that in a documented historical situation where German ground forces were ordered to stop so that the Luftwaffe could finish the job, this scenario actually doesn't use the Air Rules (which were an option during the entire Unternehmen Fall Gelb campaign).


Do whatever the rules say. Again, I am without the campaign book and can't remember. The Dunkirk scenario says air rules are optional but the campaign must say don't use air rules.

Quote:


2. If an infantry unit is ordered and moves two hexes, can it board an LC with its second move? This is to clarify things because the scenario notes seem to imply that in order for an unit to board the LC, being adjacent to it prior to boarding is a must.



There is nothing that says it can't so that's how I have played this scenario. If it said "must start its turn adjacent to the landing craft" that would be different. But because after you move the first hex the unit is adjacent to the craft, you may then board the craft with whatever remaining moves you have left.

Quote:


3. When does the LC returns to its starting position: the same turn it leaves the map when evacuating an unit or at the beginning of the next Allied turn? Is this return a default action or does the LC still needs to be ordered so as to enter the map?



I think the rules pretty much indicate (maybe imply) the craft is immediately placed ("returned" is a key word here) in its starting position when you read the paragraph. So, once it leaves the board, it is immediately returned to where it started, at no cost (requires no order to do so otherwise you couldn't do it - and "returned" is the word not ordered). Although the game piece is the same, the unit represents additional ships lined up to rescue troops. When a ship leaves the shore area (exits the board), another ship can "dock" and pick up more soldiers, always at the same place.


Quote:

I'd also like to mention that this thread was a big help prior to playing Dunkirk. I've yet to understand why at least some of the problems tackled here haven't made their way into the FAQ.


They weren't in the FAQ because no one saw any ambiguity in the rules to this point. I think all the answers I have cited here, and the answers to questions given earlier, are based on a precise reading of the rules. But it can't hurt to put SOME of these answers in the FAQ, such as #3 here and maybe #2, but not #1.
      
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Re:Dunkirk Fri, 13 December 2013 18:28
Rork,

Its probably a good idea to answer the questions you posed in the CB1 FAQ as I noticed you added comments like "answered". I would just replace that with the short answer as most of these are Yes/No answers anyway. The answers might be useful to someone else.

Sorry for giving you such a hard time. Smile Please don't let it deter you from asking further questions.
      
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Re:Dunkirk Fri, 13 December 2013 19:48
Sgt Storm wrote on Fri, 13 December 2013 20:36

They weren't in the FAQ because no one saw any ambiguity in the rules to this point. I think all the answers I have cited here, and the answers to questions given earlier, are based on a precise reading of the rules. But it can't hurt to put SOME of these answers in the FAQ, such as #3 here and maybe #2, but not #1.


The FAQ is reserved for questions that come up repeatedly or that require Official clarification from the scenario designer or Richard Borg himself. I can't imagine the amount of work or the length of the document if every 'wondering' question was in the FAQ.

As it is, these questions are exactly where they should be. They are answered by the community and are available to future players with a simple Key Word search. Smile Thanks for taking the time to answer these, Sgt Storm.
      
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Re:Dunkirk Fri, 13 December 2013 21:43
Sgt Storm wrote on Fri, 13 December 2013 18:36

Do whatever the rules say. Again, I am without the campaign book and can't remember. The Dunkirk scenario says air rules are optional but the campaign must say don't use air rules.

The Dunkirk scenario doesn't mention anything about the air rules, neither does the campaign. There are two "What if?" events that say "except for Dunkirk", so maybe this could point out that air rules are not to be used, but imho this is only guesswork.
I knew that when a scenario doesn't mention air rules, then they don't apply. But in CB2, a lot of the scenarios from the Japanese campaigns mention that "Air Rules are not in effect". So why not in Dunkirk? Or why the needless notes to do so in CB2?
Frankly, I do not know what to make of it, again because the rules don't say anything at all. From a historical point of view, it would make sense to use the air rules, but that's just my personal opinion.

Thank you for the other answers.

If everyone's okay with this, I'll change the "answered/unanswered" notes to as short as possible answers, maybe with a mention in case something doesn't quite fit. I'll need permission to do so though, since it will seem like I'm answering my own questions Laughing .

[Updated on: Fri, 13 December 2013 21:57]

      
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Re:Dunkirk Fri, 13 December 2013 21:55
Rork wrote on Sat, 14 December 2013 00:43

Thank you for the answers.

If everyone's okay with this, I'll change the "answered/unanswered" notes to as short as possible answers, maybe with a mention in case something doesn't quite fit. I'll need permission to do so though, since it will seem like I'm answering my own questions Laughing .


You could just link to this thread at the bottom of your post if you want to.
      
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Re:Dunkirk Fri, 13 December 2013 23:54
Quote:

The Dunkirk scenario doesn't mention anything about the air rules, neither does the campaign.


I was looking at the online version of the Dunkirk scenario from Official Scenarios and there the air rules are optional.

I thought Fall Gelb used blitz rules, basically Axis air superiority? I'll check this evening.

Okay, I checked. You might have mentioned that every scenario had either optional or required air rules, except Dunkirk. I think that makes it obvious there are no air rules in Dunkirk, and the What If text confirms this. Another non-problem IMO, but whatever. Though I don't see how it would matter that much if you wanted to use air rules given blitz rules are in effect.

Quote:

I knew that when a scenario doesn't mention air rules, then they don't apply. But in CB2, a lot of the scenarios from the Japanese campaigns mention that "Air Rules are not in effect". So why not in Dunkirk? Or why the needless notes to do so in CB2?
Frankly, I do not know what to make of it, again because the rules don't say anything at all. From a historical point of view, it would make sense to use the air rules, but that's just my personal opinion.


You've got to loosen up a bit. Razz CB2 is a different book than CB1. There are going to be differences. There are a lot of different scenario designers contributing here and some consistency is lost. The benefit is we have tons of scenarios to play.

In the long run, these fiddly little rule differences don't matter all that much (particularly when balance is a secondary concern). When in doubt play without air rules (i.e., as written or not written as the case maybe), but take a chance and be daring and use air rules! It doesn't matter as long as you have fun. Believe me after a couple years you won't give a rats <bleep>.

[Updated on: Sat, 14 December 2013 01:45]

      
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Re:Dunkirk Sat, 14 December 2013 09:48
I never checked the online Dunkirk version, but since it has air rules as an option, I fail to understand why it was removed in the CB - it would make sense if the online version was published after the CB. If it's a printing error, then it should be in the errata. It's non-problems like this which seem to pop-up all the time in the CB that take out all the enjoyment of the fame.

I've been playing M44 for a long time and usually what problems I ran into were easily solved by looking here or on BGG. Playing the CB has so far been a growing experience in frustration, involving a lot of guesswork, house rules, relying on historical data, mutual understanding and post-play revisions. I'm looking at what's next and I fear the worst, since Fall Gelb seemed to be pretty straighforward.

Oh, and you saying "balance is a secondary concern" is... shocking. I thought it was all a matter of balance. As in Dunkirk, where using air rules would make quite a difference imho.

[Updated on: Sat, 14 December 2013 09:50]

      
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Re:Dunkirk Sat, 14 December 2013 16:33
Rork wrote on Sat, 14 December 2013 12:48

I never checked the online Dunkirk version, but since it has air rules as an option, I fail to understand why it was removed in the CB - it would make sense if the online version was published after the CB. If it's a printing error, then it should be in the errata. It's non-problems like this which seem to pop-up all the time in the CB that take out all the enjoyment of the fame.


The online versions are always released after the printed version.

Quote:

I've been playing M44 for a long time and usually what problems I ran into were easily solved by looking here or on BGG. Playing the CB has so far been a growing experience in frustration, involving a lot of guesswork, house rules, relying on historical data, mutual understanding and post-play revisions. I'm looking at what's next and I fear the worst, since Fall Gelb seemed to be pretty straighforward.


I have to say that you seem to be having more trouble with the CBs than most players. I'm not sure why that would be. There are threads dedicated in this forum to any errata from the books, but if you take CB rules literally, and assume that what is written is what they meant, you should be just fine.

Both CBs have been out for a long time and played by tons of people, so if they were that confusing there would be more threads asking these same questions (which would help you figure them out as well).

Quote:

Oh, and you saying "balance is a secondary concern" is... shocking. I thought it was all a matter of balance. As in Dunkirk, where using air rules would make quite a difference imho.


Is it? The Campaign Books specifically say that a certain side will be harder to win on. The book tells you that the more experienced player should take the harder side...so why is it shocking that the Campaigns aren't perfectly balanced?
      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 15 December 2013 08:43
rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 14 December 2013 17:33

The online versions are always released after the printed version.

Then said mention about air rules should be in the errata.

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 14 December 2013 17:33

I have to say that you seem to be having more trouble with the CBs than most players. I'm not sure why that would be.

Maybe because I'm more demanding in terms of logic and historical data when it comes to a wargame (even if it's a light one)?

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 14 December 2013 17:33

(...) and assume that what is written is what they meant, you should be just fine.

Too bad sometimes one has to guess what is not written. And sometimes what is written apparently is not what is meant.

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 14 December 2013 17:33

The Campaign Books specifically say that a certain side will be harder to win on. The book tells you that the more experienced player should take the harder side...so why is it shocking that the Campaigns aren't perfectly balanced?


I was refering to gameplay balance, not to overall campaign balance. Using air rules as usual in Dunkirk can be game breaking, not because of the air rules per se but because the way the scenario is designed, with fixed units or no retreat space. It's the same type of balance that you think 2d strafing might upset.
      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 15 December 2013 17:10
Rork wrote on Sun, 15 December 2013 11:43

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 14 December 2013 17:33

I have to say that you seem to be having more trouble with the CBs than most players. I'm not sure why that would be.

Maybe because I'm more demanding in terms of logic and historical data when it comes to a wargame (even if it's a light one)?


You can be as demanding as you want, but this game actually simulates a lot of things very well despite being a light war game. If you read into things and try to make them match your historical expectations, you'll run into confusion as we've seen. Take things at face value and then check the FAQ if you're unsure.

Rork wrote on Sun, 15 December 2013 11:43

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 14 December 2013 17:33

(...) and assume that what is written is what they meant, you should be just fine.

Too bad sometimes one has to guess what is not written. And sometimes what is written apparently is not what is meant.


And in nearly ALL of those situations it is clarified in the FAQ. That's what I made the FAQ for and this game has been out long enough that just about every question (including most of yours) has already been asked and answered. If the questions needed more than a re-reading of the rules or a logical application of the rules, the answers were added to the Official FAQ.

Rork wrote on Sun, 15 December 2013 11:43

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 14 December 2013 17:33

The Campaign Books specifically say that a certain side will be harder to win on. The book tells you that the more experienced player should take the harder side...so why is it shocking that the Campaigns aren't perfectly balanced?


I was refering to gameplay balance, not to overall campaign balance. Using air rules as usual in Dunkirk can be game breaking, not because of the air rules per se but because the way the scenario is designed, with fixed units or no retreat space. It's the same type of balance that you think 2d strafing might upset.


Well that might be part of your problem!! Smile If you're playing with house rules that allow Planes to roll 2D for Strafing, it's going to throw things off. Again, I'm not sure why scenarios not being balanced would be a surprise either...haven't you played First Wave at Omaha Beach? That is a classic unbalanced scenario and is always fun to play as the underdog (at least for me).

[Updated on: Sun, 15 December 2013 17:11]

      
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Re:Dunkirk Sun, 15 December 2013 19:20
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 15 December 2013 18:10

If you read into things and try to make them match your historical expectations, you'll run into confusion as we've seen.

I expect scenarios/campaigns to match historical data period, not MY expectations.

rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 15 December 2013 18:10

And in nearly ALL of those situations it is clarified in the FAQ. That's what I made the FAQ for and this game has been out long enough that just about every question (including most of yours) has already been asked and answered. If the questions needed more than a re-reading of the rules or a logical application of the rules, the answers were added to the Official FAQ.

We're not going into the use-of-the-forums topic again, are we? I already pointed out that I didn't found answers to my questions (some of which were mere clarifications, needed because of inadequate phrasing in the rules). There was precisely one question which was already answered and I wasn't inspired enough while searching for it. Plus, you know, I'd like to actually play, not stop playing in the middle of a battle in order to search the forum for things which should've been made clear in the first place.

rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 15 December 2013 18:10

If you're playing with house rules that allow Planes to roll 2D for Strafing, it's going to throw things off. Again, I'm not sure why scenarios not being balanced would be a surprise either...

Balance means in my view a matter of balanced chances. It's a long discussion here and I'm not ready to get into it.... yet.
Most of my questions have nothing to do with what I think it's a sensible house rule (wished it was me to think of it first). As for it being unbalanced, it may happen under certain very special (lucky, ideal) circumstances: having the right (suite of) cards, not having better opportunities to take advantage of, rolling constant hits, an opponent that allows your plane to move with impunity and so on and so forth.
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:Dunkirk Mon, 16 December 2013 00:48
Rork wrote on Sun, 15 December 2013 02:43

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 14 December 2013 17:33

The online versions are always released after the printed version.

Then said mention about air rules should be in the errata.



Well...NO...not a campaign problem. There is no ambiguity in the air rules for the campaign. Taken literally, air rules are not available because they are not mentioned, period. The online version is not the campaign version. I looked there because at the time of answering your question I didn't have the physical book.

Quote:

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 14 December 2013 17:33

I have to say that you seem to be having more trouble with the CBs than most players. I'm not sure why that would be.

Maybe because I'm more demanding in terms of logic and historical data when it comes to a wargame (even if it's a light one)?


Historical data has no bearing on the rules. You are NOT more logical because you cannot arrive at the correct answer using said logic with the only resources that matter: the rules, the forum and FAQs. That's okay, but you can't seem to let this go.

Quote:

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 14 December 2013 17:33

(...) and assume that what is written is what they meant, you should be just fine.

Too bad sometimes one has to guess what is not written. And sometimes what is written apparently is not what is meant.



I don't have the energy to go through each of the previous questions to prove you wrong, but the rules were hardly at fault here. You are projecting your own views into the rules and not reading them clearly or logically. For example, you alone decided that tank tracks could accumulate based on absolutely nothing in the rules (same with victory rolls). Again, I have no problem answering your questions, but don't blame the game. Its really mostly your fault and you shouldn't be ashamed to admit it.

Quote:

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 14 December 2013 17:33

The Campaign Books specifically say that a certain side will be harder to win on. The book tells you that the more experienced player should take the harder side...so why is it shocking that the Campaigns aren't perfectly balanced?


I was refering to gameplay balance, not to overall campaign balance. Using air rules as usual in Dunkirk can be game breaking, not because of the air rules per se but because the way the scenario is designed, with fixed units or no retreat space. It's the same type of balance that you think 2d strafing might upset.


This argument over balanced seems to have stemmed from my saying it didn't really matter all that much whether you assumed air rules in Dunkirk. Maybe I was wrong. So don't use air rules. Clearly they are not called for because every other scenario mentions them as optional or required and this one doesn't say a thing.

Anyway, neither campaigns nor scenarios are balanced, but generally the mechanics are (except the air power card). The 2d strafing was a house rule and I think we have all encouraged folks to employ house rules as they see fit. However, when they suggest them as improvements to supposed shortcomings in the game, we pipe up and may talk about "balance" etc. as counter arguments.

When I say "balance is a secondary concern" I am using a bit of satirical license as I am the perennial complainer about balance. I am sure balance is a key concern of scenario designers but sometimes historical or game play issues take precedence. Probably in this case, the air rules were removed to prevent an easy destruction of the retreating 1 and 2 unit forces on the beach.

IMO, Memoir '44 is NOT great at simulation at the detailed level, and it shouldn't be (otherwise we'd be playing 5 hour long scenarios). Its hard to get every detail right in a scenario and some aspects may need to be sacrificed. The game excels at high level details and the facility to get the overall historical flavor correct. The game is abstract in many elements. Just because there are no air rules used in a scenario doesn't mean they are absent in the abstract. There is still the air power card and barrage. Also, the part of history you play in the Dunkirk scenario is simply a slice in time and geography.
Air attacks are still going on everywhere around you, just off the board or at another slice in time.

When I said you should lighten up, this is what I mean.

This scenario is obviously focusing on the simulation of the escape of troops off the beach via light craft. In that respect it does a pretty good job. It sacrifices some realism by not have airplanes to strafe the retreating units. So what? It also doesn't simulate the exact contour of the beach, or the destroyers parked offshore or any of a thousand other details. Its an abstraction that has focus and does a damn good job IMO.

So, don't get so worked up about the logic or historical record. Read the rules literally and study them. If you get something wrong it doesn't really matter. I sometimes don't like the way the current rules are written. For example, I never use 2d for Allies with air power. I don't allow Tank Destroyers to fire into towns and villages with impunity. I think rules for half-tracks are nonsense. I think infantry with mortar units should be implemented differently. But that doesn't matter.

So lighten up and move on. Otherwise, to get your simulation fix, go play Advanced Squad Leader, Conflict of Heroes, Band of Brothers or your simulation game of choice.

[Updated on: Mon, 16 December 2013 00:52]

      
Rork
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Re:Dunkirk Mon, 16 December 2013 09:34
I absolutely agree with you, except about me projecting my own views into the rules and not reading them clearly or logically. You can read a thousand times the track tanks and still come up with zero info about the fact that it's supposed to designate elite armor. I raised the question based on that and the otherwise impossible-to-achieve objective in the Meuse campaign, so not personal wishes but facts.
And I didn't decide that tank tracks/victory rolls could accumulate, I asked about it - big difference.
Also - and for the last time this time - I wasn't asking only questions, I was asking for clarifications because in the wake of the "may/must" controversy (incidentally, another printing fact), I started to think twice about everything I was taken for granted.

About some of the questions being already answered, I don't have either the energy to sort them again, but I did search for them and found nothing (or nothing like a clear cut answer), except for the tank track. However this shouldn't matter, because the purpose of a forum is to help people find some info, not impose to them endless searches through hundreds of pages. It's all about the rapidity of finding an info, not about its availability. There's a point beyond which searching for answers becomes tedious and time wasting. If one knows the answers, it's far more time-effective to post them then re-directing newcomers to search. At least that's what I've always done, but hey, that's just me.

One more thing: I don't blame the game, I love the game, otherwise I wouldn't be spending time playing it and looking for answers. I blame the phrasing/wording, imprecision/ambiguity in some of the rules - again, big difference.

However, in the wake of these exchanges, I came to the conclusion that it's better in the future to state whatever questions may arise in a yes/no form and refrain from any comments whatsoever. It should save us all precious time and keep the forum uncluttered.

Oh, btw, if you know of a wargame that can be "easily" learned and doesn't turn into tides of dice, I'd be glad to learn about it.

[Updated on: Mon, 16 December 2013 21:28]

      
Sgt Storm
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Re:Dunkirk Mon, 16 December 2013 19:51
I'd look at Conflict of Heroes if you don't mind scenarios that take a couple hours to play. Its easy to learn. The only annoyance is the pace at which Academy Games releases new products in the CoH line and the dearth of player-designed scenarios.
      
Rork
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Re:Dunkirk Mon, 16 December 2013 21:27
Thanks, I knew about CoH. A friend has it but we never got around to play it; he tricked me once into playing Tides of Iron and he doesn't like M44, so quite understandably I grew wary about the idea Cool . I'll look for the rules online and try to form a first impression.
      
    
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