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Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sat, 23 June 2007 20:05
coltsfan76 i never sed that i hated the game when i made the now infamouse staement (im glad i dint waste my time with m44) what i ment was i have waited along time for the britsh exp and suddenly toi apears promasing a britsh exp its like my dreams have true. the above statement was not a general statment it was only ment as a reaction to the title of this thred
i hope that clarefies things for you and randwulf althoe hes proabily blocked me
      
GeneT
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sun, 24 June 2007 00:20
I'm not a shill for TOI or anti M44, but the M44 historical battle level settings are pretty abstract.That is to say for instance, this map is Guadalcanal, that's the ocean and there's the beach and there's jungle over there. Go get it. It seems accurate in that it actually has a name and a map maybe similar to actual terrain. TOI as far as I've seen did not go for actual battles. Again, neither game gets a plus or minus for that in my book. Both work for me.

You are however right about the minis. I can nit pick accuracey in both games, but M44 wins as far as size. (size does matter in this case) TOI men are rather small for my liking! Tanks in TOI
may have an edge though! Set up and play time...M44 wipes TOI up in this comparison! You better have an hour or three for one game of TOI. Still, some days I'm ok with that, others M44 is the only option! Dice are really too small in TOI but I think that was intended as sometimes you roll a handful! Still, they should be normal size! Board quality is for the most part a wash for me also. You could do bodily harm with the TOI boards!

Bottom line though for me...I'd still probably play M44 as my first choice! I've never been too much a grognard who cares for mega rule books. M44 is wonderful for that! TOI is not too much harder but about all the complexity I desire anymore!

      
Randwulf
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sun, 24 June 2007 05:22
No roob, I have not blocked you... YET... Twisted Evil

But your mangling of the Queens english really does hurt my head... Sad

I know you are only playing, and mean no offence to anyone.

so be chill, and maybe try a spell check... Shocked

      
105mm Howitzer
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sun, 24 June 2007 05:46
I must agree with GeneT. Being an old grognard myself, I had played some serious mega rule books gmaes ( Highway to the Reich, the Entire AH Squad Leader game + gamettes, etc..) I find games like M44 refreshing in it's simplicity. Is it entirely accurate ? No. Does it cover the realism found in those monster games? Again no. It does, however, nicely introduce an epic period that humanity had to face, to those who are curious to learn more about it...
Let's not forget that DOW did not produce this game alone. They consulted with the commitee involved inthe 60 Anniversary of the Liberation of France. ( at least, that's what it says on my French game copy) Those who seek deeper levels of realism, there are plenty of selections out there.
Whew, that was long winded. My apologies to all if I carried on too much.

Shot out !!!
The Sarge.
      
Ratio
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sun, 24 June 2007 15:07
I personally thought that the original units of Memoir '44 were meant to represent the German, British and American sides in the war, where the British and American units would share the same figures.

Therefore, my guess is that a British expansion is unlikely because DOW may have already incorporated this nationality into the base game.

Roo, if you really want a "British expansion" of sorts, perhaps house rules could be made to grant the British side some advantages or disadvantages when they are in play, much like the Russian and Japanese sides in the other expansions.

My 2 cents worth Smile
      
JMcL63
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sun, 24 June 2007 16:04
Another poster pointing out that Major Oracle's attack on Roobarb was completely out of order. Evil or Very Mad

Did you give the slightest moment's thought MO as to why Roobarb might write the way he does? I did when he and I first exchanged opinions on this very topic, and it turned out that my guess was right.

As for me calling Roobarb silly- is that the same thing? I hope not. What I was trying to get at is that Roobarb is saying that there is something wrong with M44 because it doesn't have the British expansion he wants so much to see. So he's ignoring the game in favour of ToI.

Well my point here is this: adding a serious British expansion- ie. one really worth DoW's investment and our purchasing; well that would really need an upgrade to the core rules; because adding special nationality rules for the British would mean that the Germans and the U.S. Army would need to be expanded in the same way. In other words I am suggesting that the very idea of doing a British expansion would take DoW down the road of a new edition of the core game. This is not something DoW can embark on lightly.

Which is why I was saying that people- eg. Roobarb- who won't buy a game whose engine they like- ie. Battlelore- because it lacks fully detailed British rules; well, I just think that's cutting off your nose to spite your face. Which is silly. I hope Roobarb above all understands that this is not meant to be insulting. Wink

[Updated on: Sun, 24 June 2007 16:15]

      
neil1967
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sun, 24 June 2007 18:38
This British expansion stuff is kind of silly really, as others have already said the British are already there in the base set. If you want British soldiers on the table buy a box of plastic toy soldiers. One box should give you all the figures you'll need. Possibly get a box of paras too, for the pegasus bridge and arnhem scenarios Smile

If you want British rules, how about wanting an American set with special American rules too (and not just for the marines as at present)? And what about the French resistance, no figures for them from DOW, are there?

I don't personally think M44 needs anything more from DOW than it has already. For additional rules there are some excellent threads here covering just that. Plenty of scenarios too. For new figures there are loads of toy soldiers out there. And you can even get 10mm metal vehicles and guns if you so desire. So nothing official is really needed, unless you won't be happy without an official stamp of approval from DOW.

Now, if DOW want to push the system forward to cover vietnam and arab-israeli wars, then we need helicopters, anti-air weapons, etc. And I'll buy a copy. But for WWII we have what we need already.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sun, 24 June 2007 19:21
neil1967 wrote on Sun, 24 June 2007 11:38

But for WWII we have what we need already.

Really?

I might be mistaken but I thought there were air battles and sea battles as well. So we don't quite have everything yet. Razz
      
silentshadow
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sun, 24 June 2007 21:31
neil1967 wrote on Sun, 24 June 2007 11:38

But for WWII we have what we need already.


Well, here's my point of view. When DoW first put M44 on the shelf, it was all about the timing for the product. Sixty years after D-Day, relive Normandy. However, when they began to expand the game, they opened the door to expansion into every theater and diverse fighting machine. Yes, the box set covered a specific theater and specific unit typs, but the game has expanded. Due to DoW's tease in the Pacific Expansion, I'm craving air units and expanded sea units.

When I received my Pacific Theater set in the mail last summer on the day after I returned from the War in the Pacific museum, I was disappointed that they had left some unfinished business on the table such as air units, carriers, and a few others that will go unmentioned.

Like most of us here, I'm waiting for it all. If not all, then whatever we can get. If not whatever we can get, then a chocolate malt. I'll have a chocolate malt while I wait. Razz Very Happy
      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Sun, 24 June 2007 22:52
JMcL63 wrote on Sun, 24 June 2007 15:04

Another poster pointing out that Major Oracle's attack on Roobarb was completely out of order. Evil or Very Mad

Did you give the slightest moment's thought MO as to why Roobarb might write the way he does? I did when he and I first exchanged opinions on this very topic, and it turned out that my guess was right.


if anyone is intrested in what jmcl63 means i refer them to the thred entiteled HOW TO ENHANCE THE FUN! dated fri 22 june 07
as for being silly i am Wink
and can we give majororacle a break i mean if any one is guilty of rubing pepole the wrong way its me!
as for a spell checker i have tryed them they do not know what im trying to say eather
beleve it or not i am trying to take a back seat but someone always seems to set me of
by the way silentshadow "a bridge to far...very nice"

[Updated on: Sun, 24 June 2007 23:06]

      
silentshadow
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 00:22
Roobarb wrote on Sun, 24 June 2007 15:52


by the way silentshadow "a bridge to far...very nice"


"I'm awfully sorry, but I'm afraid we're going to have to occupy your house."
      
MajorOracle
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 02:36
Roobarb,

I apologize for my earlier post. It was out of line.

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 03:21
There now, can't we all just get along? If any one else has issues with anyone else, take it up on the battlefield and resolve it through vassal. Laughing
      
JMcL63
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 04:20
Roobarb wrote on Sun, 24 June 2007 21:52

JMcL63 wrote on Sun, 24 June 2007 15:04

Another poster pointing out that Major Oracle's attack on Roobarb was completely out of order. Evil or Very Mad

Did you give the slightest moment's thought MO as to why Roobarb might write the way he does? I did when he and I first exchanged opinions on this very topic, and it turned out that my guess was right.


if anyone is intrested in what jmcl63 means i refer them to the thred entiteled HOW TO ENHANCE THE FUN! dated fri 22 june 07
as for being silly i am Wink

And, for those who who haven't been following that BL thread, here is 'How to Enhance the FUN!'. Wink
      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 04:29
MajorOracle wrote on Mon, 25 June 2007 01:36

Roobarb,

I apologize for my earlier post. It was out of line.



Love Sleep
      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 04:46
silentshadow
ONE OF THE FEW:hes dead im crippeled and youer lost i suppose thats what its all about ....war i mean.
GI:i wonder who won.

[Updated on: Mon, 25 June 2007 05:08]

      
silentshadow
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 05:21
Roobarb wrote on Sun, 24 June 2007 21:46

silentshadow
ONE OF THE FEW:hes dead im crippeled and youer lost i suppose thats what its all about ....war i mean.
GI:i wonder who won.


Longest Day, huge cast for that one.

My favorite line from that film: "A landing at Normandy would be against military logic. It would be against all logic."

Give me the Panzers! They must be moved forward!
      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 05:32
OKAY how about this one?
come..and ill show where the iorn crosses grow.

[Updated on: Mon, 25 June 2007 05:40]

      
silentshadow
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 05:48
Cross of Iron

Another great film. Another great cast including Maximilian Schell and James Coburn. Great perspective of the other side's war. I wish I had it on dvd.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 06:21
smokin one more
"i fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with terible resolve"
      
silentshadow
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 06:38
Tora! Tora! Tora!

I'd say that's one of the most famous quotes of any war film about America, even if it is subtitled in English. Its one of my favorite films and still stands the test of time. I love the way the film builds up the circumstances surrounding the attack and shows the Japanese backstory. I didn't like Midway (the film) as much.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 07:00
okay if that ones easy
no captain...that is one george father lieing there ..he is a variaty artist of sorts..and a very brave man ..incredable..he knew this sort of thing could happen he didnt even call out ..he played it to the end.
      
silentshadow
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 07:16
Another great cast. The Eagle has Landed. Michael Caine is solid actor in any film. You've picked some of the best films in the war genre.

      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 07:27
do you think this would make a popular thred we could call it killer quotes
      
neil1967
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 13:24
ColtsFan76 wrote on Sun, 24 June 2007 18:21

neil1967 wrote on Sun, 24 June 2007 11:38

But for WWII we have what we need already.

Really?

I might be mistaken but I thought there were air battles and sea battles as well. So we don't quite have everything yet. Razz



If you (and no doubt others) want air and sea battles included then fair enough. But lets be realistic about it. Given that M44 is a land warfare system any representation of air and naval units really should be limited to the effects of the current air card and the barrage card (for naval fire support). The system can't handle air units moving around the map without becoming, well, silly. If a tank can move 3 hexes, how far should a fighter bomber move in an activation? 30 hexes? 40? Much better to have them abstractly appear and attack something on a special card, as happens at present.

As for naval units, again abstract is better. Their only impact on land warfare is in a support role after all, long range gunnery. No need for models to move around the table.

Now, you could possibly get a version of M44 purely for naval or aerial combat, but that's a completely new stand alone game, as it won't interact with any of the previous releases.

Just my opinion, obviously, and I'd be interested in what you envision an aerial or naval system for M44 being like. Maybe I'm missing something here.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 14:35
Neil,

We were told in Pacific that we would be getting air sortie rules. Not sure what that will entail exactly but we should be able to make use of the airfields that we have. I would aslo expect the Air Craft carries to be used. It will most likely be in an even more abstract way and only in support.

I agree that a full blown naval or air battle would be better left in a stand alone game. This is the only way you can handle the sea war for sure. Richard commented on these threads that he has tested a sea version of the C&C games - now whether that is specific to wwii naval tactics or more older ships - like ancient sea battles or age of sail - wasn't discussed.

We once had a thread of dream-expansions. We came up with a way for the air battle to be a part of the land based M44. Whimsical and probably not practical but it was fun to speculate. What we discussed was a clear plastic "table" that sat over the current board. It would be broken into hexes as well and your aircraft would sit up there. You would be able to battle in the skies while still waging a war below. If your fighters gained dominance, then bombers could come in and effect the ground war below. And this would work for a sea battle stand alone game as well. Or you could attempt to drop paratroopers. So an air battle could be an extensive expansion instead of a stand alone game.

The point is, we may have most of what we need to do a lot of what we want already. However, there are a few aspects that could still be explored. To say DOW has given us everything we could want in wwii falls short of the mark for a lot of us here.
      
neil1967
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Mon, 25 June 2007 21:56
Quote:

The point is, we may have most of what we need to do a lot of what we want already. However, there are a few aspects that could still be explored. To say DOW has given us everything we could want in wwii falls short of the mark for a lot of us here.


I don't think everyone will ever have everything they want, and I don't think I said that. But I do really believe we have everything we NEED to represent the land battles of WWII within the level of abstraction of M44. And any change to that level of abstraction (with associated increased complexity in one direction or decreased realism in the other) will, IMO, probably alienate more players than it pleases.

What M44 could probably do with is some optional rules for those who want a bit more detail, and lots of extra scenarios. And both of those are available on this site (which is provided by DOW).
      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 26 June 2007 03:08
all you realy NEED are 2 sides goodys and badys Confused why not make us all happy

[Updated on: Tue, 26 June 2007 03:14]

      
Whiterook
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 26 June 2007 03:59
Well, this thread has travelled some distance, LOL!

As I turn my chair around from the computer and stare at a quarter wall of board games collected over way too long a time period, I guess my conclusion to the point of whether to plunk down hard earned money on another was game can be guessed....the one who goes to his grave with the most games, wins! Laughing

For the record, I too think folks should back off hammering on Roobarb (he's definitely pushed the envelope, but he hasn't crossed the line)...the great thing about this forum is, it's a forum. Different perspectives. He wants Brits....heck, I want Canadians. I agree that to not buy the core game is to limit yourself from a whole lot of fun gaming (go ahead and plunk the $$$ on M44 Roo; you won't be sorry), but that's his choice, and I repect that. His knowledge on war movies alone speaks volumes as to his interest in the genre (impressive Roo and Silent)...I read from his comments that he's looking for a specific "fix" from M44, and that's cool.

Back on topic...TOI is what it is; M44 is what it is. M44 is at the top of my list of games I enjoy, but TOI will be a nice addition. And afterall, there are a lot of worse things to be plunking your money down on, so I say, game on to both!

[Updated on: Tue, 26 June 2007 04:05]

      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 26 June 2007 07:16
i have a quoat just for you whiterook (and quite possible my fave of all time)
"i dont have ta remind you that this war has been going on for almost 5 years now half of europe has been over run an occupied ..were compartive new comers england has gone thou a blitz with a knife at her throat since 1940 ...im quite shore there impashant and itching to go ...do i make myself clear"
      
silentshadow
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 26 June 2007 20:17
Roobarb wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 00:16


"i dont have ta remind you that this war has been going on for almost 5 years now half of europe has been over run an occupied ..were compartive new comers england has gone thou a blitz with a knife at her throat since 1940 ...im quite shore there impashant and itching to go ...do i make myself clear"


I know what it's from. What is even more interesting is the actor who said it.

[Updated on: Tue, 26 June 2007 20:22]

      
Sniper
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 26 June 2007 20:31
I agree, as the Duke is my favorite actor, a darn good movie with a heck of a cast.

[Updated on: Tue, 26 June 2007 20:31]

      
silentshadow
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 26 June 2007 21:23
Sniper,

I like your sig. Patton's not a bad film either, even if the Germans look like they're driving M-48s. My dad was a commander of an M-48 tank during the Berlin Crisis, to put it into perspective. For that matter, the Americans look like they're driving M-47s and M-48s. Great film, though, regardless of the availability of the WWII hardware. Patton had a great script and I like Karl Malden as the voice of reason.
      
Sniper
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 26 June 2007 21:32
SilentShadow,

I agree, that's the only thing I didn't like about the movie the lack of accurate medium tanks. They had Stuarts and other armored vehicles, but couldn't seem to lay their hands on any Shermans or any good German tanks. For that matter I think they used the same tank chasis for the German tanks and just used a longer barrel, or were the German tanks on an M60 chasis?

Game On!
      
silentshadow
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 26 June 2007 21:49
Sniper,

I'm not sure about about the main guns on the German tanks in the film, I'll have to take a closer look. The standard M-48 had 90mm gun, though some variations had a 105mm. I'll poke around later tonight if I get a chance and see what I can find out.

My son likes tank-heavy battles in M44. I think it's partly due to the fact that Grandpa is a tank man.
      
Whiterook
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Tue, 26 June 2007 23:36
Thanks Roobarb...I'm honored to get a Duke quote! You can almost hear his voice coming out of the text. One of my top fav movies.

It's surprising what Hollywood can come up with to use in movies. I think a major part of their budget is alotted to getting logistics together. Way back when, I dated a girl whose father (then in the oil business) bought an Army motorcycle after WWII, and years later was approached by some Hollywood folks to "take a look"....and it ended up being one of the bikes used by Steve McQueen in the Great Escape! It's a small world, folks! .....And by the way, that was about the only thing interesting that came out of that relationship!!! That turned into it's own World War! Shocked
      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Wed, 27 June 2007 08:44
dont mess with the duke(3 GODFATHERS ,THE COWBOYS ,THE SHOOTIST)hes the man.
anyone get this one ?
"very beautiful model general..it proves that the germans are still the worlds best toy makers"
      
silentshadow
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Wed, 27 June 2007 09:36
I'm with you on The Shootist and The Cowboys, two films in which the Duke was killed on film. Hey, The Cowboys made Bruce Dern infamous for shooting him in the back. I'm a little lost on your Godfather trilogy reference. Of course, it's been a long time since I have seen any of those films. Maybe I missed something.

Your last line reminds me of Battle of the Bulge, although regrettably I haven't seen that one in a few years, either. It had a bunch of guys in it too. I vaguely remember a Robert Shaw line about Germans making the best toys, but again it's been a while since I've seen that one. It's easy to remember Robert Shaw's performances because he made such an impression on me in Jaws when I was a kid. You're making me want to go out and rent Battle/Bulge just to check.

Roobarb, check out the Memior'44 and War Films thread.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Wed, 27 June 2007 09:43
you got it and im way ahead of you on the thred as for 3godfathers it a gem directed by john ford.maybe i got the titel wong will check
      
silentshadow
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Re:Tide of Iron - M44 knockoff, or something more original? Wed, 27 June 2007 09:54
You probably have the correct title if it's a John Ford movie. Sorry, I thought you were talking about the M. Brando character. I haven't seen many of the older John Wayne movies. I've seen Red River. It was probably the first black and white movie of his that I watched. At least I remember it being in black and white. I actually live within a few hours driving distance from the Red River.
      
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