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Brice
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Tue, 12 February 2008 20:11
kolmogorov wrote on Tue, 12 February 2008 01:46

I would like to be able to click on a name in my buddy list and be able to automatically observe the game that buddy is playing, if that game is not closed, of course !


That will be in the next version

kolmogorov wrote on Tue, 12 February 2008 01:46

PS: ... or hire a real web programmer, or buy a real server instead of the hamster DOW has, with real bandwidth, etc Wink

Sorry, the programmer is real, as the servers, the infrastructure and the bandwidth (more than 100mbps to the Internet, private peerings with lots of ISP).

If you have comments or issues, please elaborate and be precise, we are always more than happy (at least me) to have a look.
Vague rants like yours are useless, and consume bandwidth for nothing Smile
      
Brice
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Tue, 12 February 2008 20:33
Zeno wrote on Sun, 10 February 2008 18:58

A tale of woe caused by DoWs success.

I'm trying to watch a tourney game, but the players start, and I can't watch until about halfway through. As far as I can tell, the observation page shows the oldest 120 games, but since there are 173 games currently going on, I have to wait for 53 games to finish before their game comes up, and since the tourney game is a 2p game it doesn't take long to finish.

Could you either:
expand the number of observable games in the observation window, perhaps to 250 just in case.

or better

Have multiple tabs for observing games, either split by multi/2p or by map, and keep each of these at 120 games.

Oh, and with all these games, a button on your buddy list allowing you to observe the game would be most welcome.


I'll try to expand this number in the next version (and also I will certainly add some filters too, or add several tabs).
      
Zasdert Ultun
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Sun, 24 February 2008 02:18
A lot of times I start a game named "Fast" or "Please be Fast" or something like that (usually 2 player, but ocassionaly more). Once I press "go" to start the game, it takes on or more of the players 5 minutes to choose their tickets and then another 3 or 4 to decide what to do on their first turn. Some speed up as the game progresses, but some don't.

I know most people (including me) don't pay much attention to the game name, so:

I was wondering if there could be a way to have an average on time taken per turn (excluding ticket taking turns, maybe a separate statistic). It could be similar to the karma system, you can set "average time per turn must be less than x".

This would help those who don't like waiting a long time in a really suspenseful part of the game and let them move faster. Those who don't mind this can set a high average per turn.
      
psteinx
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Mon, 25 February 2008 22:36
Zasdert - one problem with your system is that some players are quite fast, EXCEPT in certain situations that are generally deemed acceptable by their opponents. For instance:

If you're having a chatty game and all are enjoying it (no one is being seriously delayed...)

If player A has been replaced by a bot, and player B assumes that player A left involuntarily, and is therefore waiting for player A to return (this is a typical courtesy among higher ranked players).

There are probably other examples as well.

      
Zasdert Ultun
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Wed, 27 February 2008 00:44
That makes perfect sense. Thanks for the feedback on my idea.

It is just that I am the type of person who usually finishes a game in 20 minutes. If I look at the clock and notice I have 30 minutes before I have to do something, I will play a game of Ticket to Ride online because I have plenty of time. Sometimes though, a player will take 5 minutes to choose their tickets then probably much longer than needed to take their turns. I end up losing karma and points to my score because I have to leave due to the fact that I am out of time. The other player(s) don't talk to me in these situations, they just take forever to decide what to do on their turn.

I really don't like hurrying people, so what should I do?
      
Mr Bean
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Wed, 27 February 2008 01:28
Not much to do i guess except ask nicely and explain you put "fast" in the title, because you really have a deadline and could they please try and speed up a little. Most folks would cooperate, i imagine. If not, you've tried Smile
      
Sarcheas
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Wed, 27 February 2008 03:11
If you have played 1000 games in a timely manner, and 30 in a chatty manner, your overall time rating will be fairly low. That said, frankly, I do NOT want to play with chatty people, so I would certainly hope that a time filter would keep those types out of my games and the games that I play.

The bot thing is a reasonable objection, perhaps a "delay turn due to bot" button where you play your turn, but it gets delayed the maximum time to allow the player to come back. If you move and press this button, the time after you press the button wouldn't count against your average.
      
Nemo_
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Fri, 14 March 2008 11:30
Brice wrote on Tue, 12 February 2008 21:11

kolmogorov wrote on Tue, 12 February 2008 01:46

I would like to be able to click on a name in my buddy list and be able to automatically observe the game that buddy is playing, if that game is not closed, of course !


That will be in the next version


Does next version mean update to online game, or is the next version avalaible only to computer game by loading it?

And my wish would be, that like you can make game with karma limit, you could make game with score limit, of course not all possible score, just 1400+, 1500+ and 1600+ and maybe top 100, is that possible?

[Updated on: Fri, 14 March 2008 11:33]

      
ThaBossman
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  Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Tue, 08 April 2008 07:07
I thought of a great way to save time in a (computer) game...

In the event of a player drawing destination tickets: it would be good if the following player could take tickets (if they wanted to) without having to wait for the previous player to make his final decision.

My friends and I do this in the board game version to save time...what are peoples thoughts on this being implemented in the online version??
      
Jac_
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Sat, 12 April 2008 21:28
We don't do it your way, simply because it might make the ticket drawer decide not to take a ticket, after seeing what the following players play.

      
Rico44
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Sun, 13 April 2008 03:14
I would like to add the colour-blind issue to the wishlist.

I haven't hosted a game myself, but as a player, and this being a java game, the following would hopefully be possible:

Have 1 or 2 reserve/extra colour options for the 5 players. Whether this is a local setting in 'my account' and only applies to the board I see when I'm playing, or whether it is an option the host can choose for a game when a game is started.

This is for those who find it hard or impossible to tell player 1 & 3 apart (the green being very light and close to yellow) and the player 4 & 5 colours also being quite close in hue and similar looking.

Card-wise, the shape of the trains makes it easy enough to tell apart, and in fact they're much easier to tell apart than the player colours. Same for the board itself, although the Swiss map seems poorer quality somehow and zooming in is sometimes needed to see the symbol / check the colour.

But personally I think if just the player colour option was implemented in some way, if easy enough, would be a great way to help cater for us colour-blind minority determind to enjoy playing this game online. Smile

Thanks,

- Steve
      
Hammerite
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Mon, 21 April 2008 02:32
I would like to ask for three things.

First: It would be nice if we could choose particular cards to play rather than have the computer decide for us to use the minimum number of Locomotives. This is really only important for the Swiss map, where you might have good reason to want to play a particular combination of Wagon and Tunnel cards. For example, if I have six Red Wagon cards and four Tunnel, and I want to use my Red cards to take both Lausanne - Fribourg and Wassen - Bellinzona... but I want to take the Wassen - Bellinzona Tunnel first. I would want to use three Red Wagon cards and one Tunnel to do this, so that I've left three Red Wagon for the non-Tunnel route. In the board game I can do this, but on the Web version I cannot. How annoying!

However, I can see how obliging players to select specifically the cards they want would massively slow down play when such a thing is not usually necessary. Here's an idea that could avoid that problem while still leaving the game playing the way it does at present for most of the time. Have the game work the way it does now, but somewhere in the side bar have a toggle button that turns on "advanced card selection mode". Then, if it's turned on, card selection works the way it does in the Gang of Four applet - a player "pushes up" the cards they want to use by clicking on them individually. Then they click on the route they want to claim, or the city they want to Station, to complete the operation. They would also have to be able to select the specific card(s) they wanted to use to pay any additional Tunnel cost. This could work via a drop down list in the Tunnel notification dialog: Do you want to pay using 0, 1, 2 or 3 Tunnel (or do you want to refuse)? That system would work, surely?

This system would also allow you to implement Nordic Countries if you chose to do so, by providing a method whereby players could pick the particular junk cards they want to waste to grab Ferry routes or the 9-route. Implementing this rules difference would of course be a headache with the current system.

Second: It would be nice if games could have a minimum number of players as well as a maximum. Personally I like playing in games with either 4 or 5 players, or in Swiss, the maximum of 3 players. I always select the maximum number in the drop down box (i.e. either 3 or 5), and I alert people to the fact that I intend to play with however many players by entering as the game title either "3" or "4 or 5". On occasion I've joined others' games that were marked as 4-player, only to have them start with just me and them in the game, i.e. a two-player game. Usually I just quit the game immediately, because after all why should I be obliged to play with only one opponent when what I wanted was a several-player game? So that's why I'd like games to have a minimum number, I could avoid ones that were marked as having too low a minimum.

Third: The web version tells you, when someone plays cards to claim a tunnel and then doesn't end up claiming it (because of the particular cards that come up), whether they didn't claim it because they failed or just because they weren't willing to pay the additional cost (but could have claimed it if they really wanted). In the board game that's not how it works. The player isn't obliged to tell you that they CAN'T claim the tunnel... only that they WON'T. Of course, players might guess in the web version whether a player was forced to reject the Tunnel by not having the cards to pay the extra, because if the computer rejects it for them then that will happen instantly rather than the player being asked about it. Maybe the computer could randomly delay from 1 to 3 seconds to avoid that.
      
ross_horowitz
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Sun, 15 June 2008 18:45
Hi,

I haven't read through all the proposals, and I don't know if it's there, but if no one else has proposed it, I really want an electronic version of the Marklin game.

Very Happy
      
LadyImmortal
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Tue, 17 June 2008 06:42
I know this has more or less been addressed (and somewhat dismissed) before but I have to bring this up.

I play a lot of 'solo' games against the PC version bots.

And frankly they're all dumber than pitch. Why were none of them programmed to actually FINISH ROUTES? Once in a while one of them will but mostly they seem to build the long 15-pointers and only occasionally will they finish routes. (They're awesome at teaching you how to work around a block though!)

You can keep the online bots not so clever if that's what the majority want but I'd love more intelligent (or heck, how about different levels of bots???) for the pc version of the game...

(You know, Easy, Medium, Hard, Expert, etc...)

      
Truckerteller
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Sat, 21 June 2008 18:05
If not already stated:

- possibility to see players various rankings while hovering over the name, or right clicking or anything similar
- ability to set hard ranking limits to a game
- possibility to see who's observing your/a game
- automatically stop players with same IP from observing
- possibility to put people on your unobserve list
- automatic ticket counter (to make sense of your 44 cards)
- bot doesn't play first move immedeately after someone get's disconnected, but allows for a return
- possibility to abort game if average playing speed of opponent drops below a certain level
- possibility of allowing takeback if your opponent plays a single route in stead of the intended station (in Bucarest:)) (I'm sure this could get us into all sorts of new unfairness discussions on not allowing a takeback...)
- possibility of sorting games in progress on top ranked player in the game and average rank of all players in the game
- adding some graphs on players rank development through time and nr of games played

Thx,
TT

[Updated on: Tue, 15 July 2008 23:07]

      
TuS WhiteTrain
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Wed, 09 July 2008 09:51
I wonder when you increase the number of games a player has to play within 15 days to stay ranked?


WHEN ALL TOP 20 PLAYERS PLAY ONLY 1 GAME???


      
Nemo_
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Sat, 25 October 2008 15:33
SOS Truckerteller wrote on Sat, 21 June 2008 19:05

If
- automatically stop players with same IP from observing



So i cant watch Juuco's games after this?
      
Truckerteller
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Sat, 25 October 2008 15:53
OK, sorry Zimo, bad plan Smile

But still, complicated situation...
      
AGT-DN
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Tue, 28 October 2008 00:40
Hi Brice...I really hope, the "change start player" button will come soon...
      
Nemo_
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Thu, 30 October 2008 18:20
AGT-DerNeusser wrote on Tue, 28 October 2008 01:40

Hi Brice...I really hope, the "change start player" button will come soon...


Even we had one, in bo5 games starting always goes 3-2 if all games are played.

I think its not most important thing we need...
      
AGT-DN
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Thu, 30 October 2008 19:33
Well Zimo, 2-3 in starting (or maybe 1-2) is even better than 0-3, isn't it???

Do you think, I had a teeny-tiny chance against you in bo5, if you start every single game???
      
TuS WhiteTrain
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Tue, 02 December 2008 14:20
Hi all,

i am asking myself now for 4 years allready, what that bell in the lobby does,except bugging me. Its allways the first thing after enetring the lobby to silence the bell. And i dont know any other player who needs it, or can stand that terrible bong-bong-bong for longer than a minute. It doesnt help anyone, it`s useless and it would be easy to get rid of it, i think.

PLEASE SILENCE THAT STUPID BELL


White
      
Nemo_
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Wed, 03 December 2008 20:06
The bell is very stupid in lobby, but in game it can be handy. Eg. when im browsing other website in multi, which can be slow sometimes, I know when its my turn, and others dont have to wait.

But in lobby:


PLEASE SILENCE THAT STUPID BELL




Other thing. When I play with computer game, I hear a music, ITS TERRIBLE. I once tried how long i can stand it. I was in a good mood, and even played same time. Afer 2min, i couldnt take it anymore. Why do you keep playing the same song, which repeats itself every 20 sec. Is it really too hard to find song or a soundtrack for the game. As far as I know, nobody likes that music.
So my other wish is:

PLEASE CHANGE THE RECORD





[Updated on: Wed, 03 December 2008 20:09]

      
Brice
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Wed, 03 December 2008 20:26
Zimo wrote on Wed, 03 December 2008 20:06


Other thing. When I play with computer game, I hear a music, ITS TERRIBLE. I once tried how long i can stand it. I was in a good mood, and even played same time. Afer 2min, i couldnt take it anymore. Why do you keep playing the same song, which repeats itself every 20 sec. Is it really too hard to find song or a soundtrack for the game. As far as I know, nobody likes that music.
So my other wish is:

PLEASE CHANGE THE RECORD


The music lasts for about 1 or 2 minutes, if it repeats every 20s for you then it is a bug.
Note that you can mute the music, that's easy, it's in the settings screen. You can even change the music volume.
And finally if you don't like the music you can still change the file on disks, it is in ogg format, just convert any music you like into an ogg file and drop it in place of the old ones, and you're in good shape Smile
      
Brice
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Wed, 03 December 2008 20:28
WhiteTrain wrote on Tue, 02 December 2008 14:20

Hi all,

i am asking myself now for 4 years allready, what that bell in the lobby does,except bugging me. Its allways the first thing after enetring the lobby to silence the bell. And i dont know any other player who needs it, or can stand that terrible bong-bong-bong for longer than a minute. It doesnt help anyone, it`s useless and it would be easy to get rid of it, i think.

PLEASE SILENCE THAT STUPID BELL


White

I removed the lobby bell in the current trunk, so it will end in production for the next release.
      
TuS WhiteTrain
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Fri, 05 December 2008 18:16



[Updated on: Fri, 05 December 2008 18:17]

      
Truckerteller
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Wed, 04 February 2009 17:57
It seems my suggestion to let the bot wait a while before playing has resulted in a new form of cheating, namely: irritating your opps and stalling (+ re-entering) to make your opps go mad and leave, so the bot (bleh) takes over. Please do something about this DoW, maybe allow a player to leave and re-enter only twice or so.

Addition: Option to "challenge" a player, a pop-up will appear which can be accepted or not. Also, the ability to set minimum rank and no guest or unavailable for challenges would be more than useful in this case, because otherwise you will have all sorts of people (annie-c) challenging you over and over again.

If not already stated:

- possibility to see players various rankings while hovering over the name, or right clicking or anything similar
- ability to set hard ranking limits to a game
- possibility to see who's observing your/a game
DELETE - automatically stop players with same IP from observing
- possibility to put people on your unobserve list
- automatic ticket counter (to make sense of your 44 cards)
- bot doesn't play first move immedeately after someone get's disconnected, but allows for a return
- possibility to abort game if average playing speed of opponent drops below a certain level
- possibility of allowing takeback if your opponent plays a single route in stead of the intended station (in Bucarest:)) (I'm sure this could get us into all sorts of new unfairness discussions on not allowing a takeback...)
- possibility of sorting games in progress on top ranked player in the game and average rank of all players in the game
- adding some graphs on players rank development through time and nr of games played

Thx,
TT

[Updated on: Fri, 06 February 2009 16:14]

      
Brice
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Fri, 06 February 2009 15:02
Truckerteller wrote on Wed, 04 February 2009 17:57

It seems my suggestion to let the bot wait a while before playing has resulted in a new form of cheating, namely: irritating your opps and stalling (+ re-entering) to make your opps go mad and leave, so the bot (bleh) takes over. Please do something about this DoW, maybe allow a player to leave and re-enter only twice or so.


Yes, I know, this sucks, in the very next version I promise every day, I have shortenen the delay, forced the bot to take only cards for several turns, and finally you can't join back more than 3 times per game. I think this will put an end to this abuse.

Truckerteller wrote on Wed, 04 February 2009 17:57

Addition: Option to "chalenge" a player, a pop-up will appear which can be accepted or not. Also, the ability to set minimum rank and no guest or unavailable for challenges would be more than useful in this case, because otherwise you will have all sorts of people (annie-c) challenging you over and over again.


I filed a complaint to this guy's ISP, requesting permanent block to our network. I'm waiting for their answer.
      
Nemo_
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Mon, 16 March 2009 17:05
Would be nice also to have a thing to buddy list, which moves player who are online, to top of the list, like in skype, msn etc.
Also maybe a little sign when some of your buddies comes online.
      
Aluluei
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Sun, 16 August 2009 19:40
Is there a separate threat for technical wishlist items?

I've had the boardgame for a while, but didn't realize there was a computer version until hearing it mentioned at Gencon yesterday. Downloaded it last night and played solo for hours. I'm still working up the courage to try a competitive game -- my past opponents have primarily been my 10 and 7-year-old sons, so I'm feeling a bit out of my depth here!

I would very much like it if the downloadable game supported more screen resolutions. This game is perfect for playing on a netbook (challenges the mind without overwhelming the poor little Atom processor) except that it doesn't support 1024x600 displays. It plays in a virtual 1024x768 mode, so I'm constantly scrolling up or down. It would be great to be able to see both the top and bottom of the game screen at the same time.
      
KANgo2
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Wed, 11 November 2009 16:26
I would like to see my (rank) score and that of my oppenents recorded in the stats for each match to see what progress (up or down) I am making
      
OzMatt
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Thu, 12 November 2009 02:51
Here are some thoughts about the online version of the game, especially the downloaded version which I use.

I'd like to be able to see while in a game the language preference of the other players. I can then decide which language to use when chatting.

I'd like that while in a game whenever someone sends a chat message that a sound is played. Many times I have not noticed someone has said anything until ages later.

In the lobby (not sure the correct term as I am not on my own computer) I'd like to wherever I see a user name be able to get the user's details, and not just in the user list. That is, in the chat window and the list of open/closed games.

Another thought is to be able to filter the user list by a typed in value for the name. It might make it easier to handle the constantly changing list.

Matt
      
Sweet Petunia
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Thu, 12 November 2009 03:04
I love the feature in the CD version of TTR that shows the number of completed tix and incomplete tix. Any chance of adding this to the online version?
      
OzMatt
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Thu, 12 November 2009 03:10
Sweet Petunia wrote on Thu, 12 November 2009 13:04

I love the feature in the CD version of TTR that shows the number of completed tix and incomplete tix. Any chance of adding this to the online version?


I second that. It's the reason I don't use the version on the web.

Matt
      
Caboose
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Thu, 12 November 2009 06:09
OzMatt wrote on Wed, 11 November 2009 19:10

Sweet Petunia wrote on Thu, 12 November 2009 13:04

I love the feature in the CD version of TTR that shows the number of completed tix and incomplete tix. Any chance of adding this to the online version?


I second that. It's the reason I don't use the version on the web.

Matt


My guess as to why this is not the case is that there are tournies online and thus if you think you completed a ticket when you did not would be the major reason why this hasn't been implemented. Since in like face to face games, it should be up to the user to verify they have the tickets completed.

Just my 2 cents...
Cab
      
OzMatt
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Thu, 12 November 2009 06:36
Caboose wrote on Thu, 12 November 2009 16:09


My guess as to why this is not the case is that there are tournies online and thus if you think you completed a ticket when you did not would be the major reason why this hasn't been implemented. Since in like face to face games, it should be up to the user to verify they have the tickets completed.

Just my 2 cents...
Cab


In a face to face game I would be moving the ones I completed away from those that I had. Perhaps a mechanism like that would be a solution. It could be as simple as manually reordering the cards.

Matt
      
dea1
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Thu, 12 November 2009 09:26
OzMatt schrieb am Thu, 12 November 2009 06:36


In a face to face game I would be moving the ones I completed away from those that I had.


Makes it pretty easy for your opponent to know, whether you completed your ticks Rolling Eyes
And probably also which ticks ... assuming you move the ticket away at completion time.

Of course, online one could implement mechanisms that the opponent doesn't see - but I don't think it's necessary.
      
barneyg
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Fri, 13 November 2009 17:12
Caboose écrit le Thu, 12 November 2009 00:09


My guess as to why this is not the case is that there are tournies online and thus if you think you completed a ticket when you did not would be the major reason why this hasn't been implemented. Since in like face to face games, it should be up to the user to verify they have the tickets completed.

Just my 2 cents...
Cab


I don't think that's a very good reason -- you can play online with the downloadable version (including tournaments of course), which does show the number of total/complete tickets. I use the software interface instead of the web-based interface because it is more visually appealing, but I can assure you the drawback of not seeing the number of cards in your hand (and therefore always having to count, like we all had to do prior to the changes earlier this year), is much bigger than the advantage of seeing how many tickets you have and how many have been completed. I was assured by DOW that this would be put in a future version of the software.

The counter for tickets drawn/completed is nice but I don't think that's a big advantage and is surely not the reason why it wasn't put in the web version. First, if you're careless enough not to review your tickets, you're careless enough not to check the counter (true story). Second, the cities on your tix are still highlighted on the map (which obviously isn't the case in face to face games).

(Note: I'll admit that the counter is a bit more useful in the 1910 and Mega variants, where you have the +15 globetrotter bonus, or in Swiss games that sometimes turn into drawfests.)
      
Zeno
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Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Sat, 30 January 2010 07:22
No more dancing locos!

During a multi game with top players, the deck often gets down to a few cards, sometimes with many locos in it. Then, when the board comes up with three or more locos, they exchange, and there are times when there are six cards and four of them locos, so no combination of cards will work. This results in a loco dance where the computer tries four times to get fewer than three locos showing (even though that is impossible here). So we watch the loco dance. And the person decides to draw from the deck, and the locos dance. And then the person has to pick a non-loco, and the locos dance. And then someone plays a two-track, and the locos dance. I've been in games where we have to sit through the loco dance over half a dozen times. The fix seems simple. Whenever it is impossible to have fewer than three locos showing(i.e. when there are fewer than three color cards in the deck), the deck does not keep reshuffling. Instead, the first permutation is left alone.
      
Hammerite
Junior Member

Posts: 10
Registered:
June 2007
Re:Proposals for ticket to ride wishlist Sun, 31 January 2010 18:21
Sweet Petunia wrote on Thu, 12 November 2009 02:04

I love the feature in the CD version of TTR that shows the number of completed tix and incomplete tix. Any chance of adding this to the online version?

Further to this, in the CDROM version, when there are fewer than 3 cards left in the ticket draw deck a number appears over the deck indicating how many are there. In Swiss 3-player games this is very useful information to have since the last draw will be one card only! Could this be added to the web interface so I don't feel like I have an unfair advantage when playing against others in Swiss?
      
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